Should we extend the LMBQG?

[voralfred]

So the best is to put it to a vote.
I'm proposing most reasonable options, if anyone has a different suggestion, that can appear in a post.


The first options keep adding books.
In the fourth one adds old stories, but of a less known book.
In the fifth, one adds a very recently published book.
The sixth combines fourth and fifith.

In the fifth ans sixth option, the logic would be to add "Horizon" (Shring Knife #4) almost as soon as it comes out.
By the time the new Miles comes out, maybe we can have a new poll....


This poll is for what we do for the next few months, not necessarily forever.
For instance, if we add B and L now, in a few months it would make sense to add Passage even if we don't include Spirit Ring. But at this point, Passage came out so recently I think Spirit Ring should have priority.



So I entered my own vote, stay as we are, but I am just one voter, I don't want to influence anyone and if a majority wants to add books, well, the majority wins. (Of course, even I would consider adding B and L in a few months anyway).

[risi]

So, is option 3 to add Begiulement, Legacy AND Spirit Ring, or to just add SR?

It's not entirely clear which way you mean it and one can't choose multiple options, so please clarify

[Ghost]

IMHO:

This is the LMB quote game not the Vorkosiverse and Word of Chalion quote game. Any and all works (books, shoprt stories, etc...) by Ms. Bujold should be fair game.

[SPetty]

IMHO:

This is the LMB quote game not the Vorkosiverse and Word of Chalion quote game. Any and all works (books, short stories, etc...) by Ms. Bujold should be fair game.

The issue with adding in some of the lesser known books is that it will make it more likely for quotes to grow cold. I admit, my first inclination is the "only books that I have." However, I agree with Ghost that it seems only fair to include all of her published work.

[risi]

However, I agree with Ghost that it seems only fair to include all of her published work.

Hasn't she done some non-fiction, too? And I think a lot of that is the more obscure and/or hard to get stuff. Perhaps, if we don't limit it to specific book titles, we should limit it to her published fiction? Just a thought...

[voralfred]

So, is option 3 to add Begiulement, Legacy AND Spirit Ring, or to just add SR?

It's not entirely clear which way you mean it and one can't choose multiple options, so please clarify

I meant Spirit Ring in addition to Beguilement and Legacy.

Options one to three are included in the next one. Only 4 and 5 are extensions in different directions, with 6 regrouping all.

To my knowledge, the published nonfiction is in the collection "Dreamweaver Dilemma", unless one also includes postfaces to reeditions and omnibus editions.

I think nonfiction should definitely be left out.

I could change option 6 and add option 7 for nonfiction too, for further voters...

At least risi expressed the opinion nonfiction should be left out.

Since Spetty and Ghost cannot modify their vote, what about an explicit post?

I should also make quite clear that this vote is for now, and the next few months. Certainly at some point we'll add "Passage".

Ghost and Spetty (I assume risi is the one who did not vote yet) do you really mean you want to include Passage as of now?



Edit: No, I cannot change the options now, apparently now that there are votes, I can edit my text but not the poll itself.

So I suggest, anyone voting for everything should also make clear in a psot opinion about adding also nonfiction.

[voralfred]

We need to have a tally of the voters.
I assumed the person who voted for option 3 was risi, since this vote appeared just after I clarified her questio nand that vote was consistent with what she had expressed elsewhere.
But could the person who voted for option 1, in addition to myself, post his/her name? Thanks


I should also make clear the way I think we should make the decision as a result of the votes: we do not go to the option that carries most votes, but for adding those books that are compatible with a majority.
Fo instance if the votes would stop here (2,0,1,0,0,2) we would follow option 3 although it has only one vote because:

- a majority of 3 votes out of 5 want to add at least G,L and RS
(namely, voters for option 3 and 6)
- a majority of 3 votes out of 5 do not want to add anytihng else
(namely, voters for option 3 and 1)

[voralfred]

AAARGHHHHH!

A few hours ago, I asked the fifth voter, after Ghost, SPetty, risi (or so I supposed) and myself to post his name so I could keep a tally.

Now there are seven voters, three of which are anonymous.

Please, let me know who voted. You don't even have to correlate name and vote, one anonymous voted for option 5 and two for option 1.




BTW, curiously, if there are no more votes, we are still led to choose option 3 since a majority of 4 out of 7 want at least B, L and SR (voters for 3,5 and 6) and a majority of 4 out of 7 don't want anything else (voters for 3 and 1).

But I counted a minimum of 8 regulars and maybe a few more if they come back from a long absence. So I'd like to know exactly who voted to remind by PM the missing ones.

[risi]

Yes, I voted for option 3 immediately after you clarified that it was cumulative with the votes before. cheers!

[voralfred]

Glad to have guessed correctly but that leaves 3 anonymous.
Another guess: these 3 are a subset of Blackwing, Reede Kullervo, JKCade and Ragua.


Apart from the one, among these four, who has not yet voted, whose votes are we waiting for?

- clong and marcyb used to be active members of this thread and of the forum as a whole but have not posted anywhere for months. I regret this situation but we are not going to wait for months for them to vote.
- there are a few players who came and promply disappeared (Vesna, Sharkbait, Shadow008), chances are they won't come back at all.
- finally gollum never won, and not even offered an answer that turned out incorrect, but he has several times shown interest in the game, and he, at least, is still a frequent poster in the forum as a whole. If the eighth regular's vote creates a tie, gollum could be the tiebreaker.

[Blackwing]

I've voted.

[gollum]

Still lurking .... and no I haven't voted, I wouldn't wish to skew the result for those that do participate.

My opinion then - for what it's worth* - agrees with Ghost, any and all fiction is fair game.

*While I have read nearly all of LMB's work, my local library supplied 90% of them.

[voralfred]

Now we know one voter was Blackwing, there are still two anonymous voters, presumably among Reede Kullervo, JKCade and Ragua.

If the third one would vote now we could come to a decision.

[Reede Kullervo]

No, I didn't vote .
Ok, I'm for all LMB fiction work. Non-fiction, gladly, but I don't know could I get that .

[voralfred]

Well, why don't you vote so it is done?

[voralfred]

OK, so where are we?

If we assume that the two anonymous voters are indeed JKCade and Ragua (please, do confirm!) and counting RK vote as for option 6 (why don't you actually vote, RK?) we have:

- a clear majority (5 against 3, the latter being the voters for option 1) to include at least Beguilement, Legacy and Spirit Ring. And this does not even take into account gollum's opinion
- a clear majority (again 5 against 3, the latter being SPetty, Ghost and RK) against including the short stories in "Dreamweaver Dilemma" and, a fortiori, nonfiction. Even including gollum this puts it at 5 against 4, still the majority is against.

Concerning Passage, it is a tie 4 against 4 among the "regulars". However in such a situation, I think gollum's opinions should count as tiebreaker. Since he is for inclusion, one should also add Passage.

So the outcome of the vote should be:
Beguilement, Legacy, Spirit Ring and Passage: yes
short stories and nonfiction : no

that is, option 5


All of this is of course pending confirmation that the two anonymous votes are indeed by JKCade and Ragua, and not by some practical joker who never played the LMBQG and just voted to confuse issues. Well, I doubt such a person is active on this forum but one never knows. Of course one (or both) of the anonymous could be a legitimate player (clong, or marcyb, or some other "revenant", so please post to advertise yourself) in which case one should wait for the missing "regular" to vote.

Does anyone see any flaw in my analysis?
I don't mean, is everyone fully happy: in fact only the anonymous voter for option 5 will be completely happy. Some of us did not want to extend that much, some wanted more, and I see no reason one should change one's personal, intimate, opinion (I keep thinking that quotes from "Spirit Ring" have a good chance to grow cold.. but I am in a minority!).
What I mean is, in view of the result of the poll is there anyone who does not agree that option 5 is what democracy says we should do?

[SPetty]

Ghost and Spetty (I assume risi is the one who did not vote yet) do you really mean you want to include Passage as of now?

While I think it ought to be available, I personally won't choose to post quotes from Passage until I run out of other interesting quotes from the other books, in the interest of keeping the game moving.

As far as the non-fiction goes, are we talking about the author's notes at the back of the omnibus editions? I just checked the list at Border's, and there doesn't seem to be any separately published non-fiction.

It does seem ironic that we're going with the option that only one person chose, however.

Suzette

[voralfred]

(....)
As far as the non-fiction goes, are we talking about the author's notes at the back of the omnibus editions? I just checked the list at Border's, and there doesn't seem to be any separately published non-fiction.

It does seem ironic that we're going with the option that only one person chose, however.

Suzette

There is some rather fair amount of nonfiction in the collection "Dreamweaver Dilemma", in addition to the author's notes at the end of the omnibus editions.

But the majority voted against that, and against short fiction that appears only in "Dreamweaver Dilemma" (nobody wants to exclude "MoM", of course!)

Well, it is ironic but do you agree that this is what is the most democratic decision, or do you recommend another one, in terms of the result of the votes (not just your own preference)?

This solution is pretty far from my own preference, but I suggest it now because this is what corresponds, book by book, to the choice of the majority.

[Reede Kullervo]

Well, why don't you vote so it is done?

Beause I'm from ex-communist country where voting was obligatory . I hate voting .
This is internet, this is free .

[risi]

As far as the non-fiction goes, are we talking about the author's notes at the back of the omnibus editions? I just checked the list at Border's, and there doesn't seem to be any separately published non-fiction.

Well, if you look at the bibliography over at dendarii.com (http://www.dendarii.com/biblio.html#nonfiction), there seems to be a few non-fiction pieces listed that are not in Dreamweaver's Delimma, and that I would have no idea where to get a copy of. That is why I raised the issue about non-fiction in the first place. I hadn't even thought about author's comments. I don't have any of the omnibuses... are there more comments in them than in the other editions?

I'm also curious about Women at War, which is listed as one of Lois's books (in the above biblio). Did she write one of the stories or just put the anthology together? Does anyone know?

[risi]

Does anyone see any flaw in my analysis?

I confess, I was having a little trouble following what you were saying. It sounds like you are saying that a specific option represents votes for all the books in it, which are then added together. If that's right, then putting the votes in tabular form would look like this:

Code: Select all

no change   B+L   SR   DD   TSK:P

   x                                 (option 1)
   x                                 (option 1)
   x                                 (option 1)
             x    x                  (option 3)
             x    x           x      (option 5)
             x    x    x      x      (option 6)
             x    x    x      x      (option 6)
             RK   RK   RK     RK     (via post)
   --        --   --   --     --
   3         5    5    3      4

So, have I understood this correctly? If I have, then I think your analysis makes sense.

As far as how long to wait... perhaps we should set a date and go with whatever we have on that date?

[voralfred]

Almost, but not quite.
The first column "no change" is not meaningful.
I understand each option as a "yes" vote for books in it and a "no" for the other books. So option 3 is "no" to DD and TSK:P, option 5 is "no" to DD.

So the votes are book by book, and the totals at the bottom of each of risi's columns (except the first one) are the "yes", but the complement to 8 are "no".

Thus

B+L and SR have 5 "yes" thus 8-5=3 "no" -> they are in

DD has 3 "yes" thus 8-3=5 "no" -> it is out

"Passage" has 4 "yes" thus 8-4=4 "no": tie among the "regulars"

In case of tie, I suggest to consider gollum's opinion (identical to option 6, as he explained by post, just like RK) as tiebraker, thus "Passage" is in.


There is no need to wait anymore.
Unless JKCade or Ragua protest that, contrary to my assumption, they have not voted yet (in which case one of the votes is not "legitimate") we have all the votes we need. Noone else is likely to vote, the probability of clong, marcyb or one of the occasional players coming back soon is very small.

I checked that I have the correct answer to RK's latest question (Vor Game, chapter 11).

So starting from my next question as soon as she confirms, I'll use the new rule:

OK for all three published TSK books including "Passage", and "Spirit Ring" but not the short fiction in DD nor nonfiction.

Of course saying so does not mean I'll actually quote one of the new additions.....

[voralfred]

(...) I hate voting .
This is internet, this is free .

Dear RK
I am really sorry for you , but you did vote!
Not only you did but I took your vote into account!

No, I didn't vote .
Ok, I'm for all LMB fiction work. Non-fiction, gladly, but I don't know could I get that .

You expressed your opinion, in a post rather than in pushing a button, but that made no difference.
I took your opinion into account exactly as that of the seven others who did push the "vote" button, no difference at all! Look at risi's table (I agree with it, except for the significance of the first column, if I have time I'll expand about that). You see that you count exactly as if you had pushed the "option 6" button.
Since you were the only one to do so, this was not a problem. The "vote" feature is just a useful tool so one does not have to sift through all the posts for all opinions, that is all. If all eight participants had done as you did it would have been a bit more awkward. Well they are just eight of us. But imagine, 500 participants, and one has to go through all the posts! That is what the "vote" button is for!
Vote is freedom, not the contrary. In communist country one could not vote. They called it voting, but people had no real choice and no way to express their choice. Here, on the internet, on this forum at least, it is different: you are asked for your choice and it is taken into account (but if it is a minority, well, the decision goes the other way, that happened for the "DD" and nonfiction part of it, but it went the way you wanted for everything else).
Of course you are also free, if you want, to keep your opinion secret, and let the others decide without you. Nobody forces you to express yourself. But in fact you did express yourself in a post. Pushing a button was just the same, the fact that seven did it made the job of counting opinions easier, this is all.

[voralfred]

OK, so to come back to risi's first column, "no change", well it is not a meaningful "vertical column", but a horizontal "option".

I can give an example. Our case is not very apppropriate, because I did not offer all options, there were too many of them (16 in all). Clearly, noone in his right mind would want to add "Passage" and not B+L, so there was no point offering this option! Some other options I did not offer were not so obvious. After all, someone might want the short fiction in DD but not Spirit Ring but I did not offer that either.


So let us take a simpler imaginary case, of three books A,B and C where any combination could be a logical choice.
Then there are 8 options in all:
1) none
2) A only
3) B only
4) C only
5) A and B but not C
6) A and C but not B
7) B and C but not A
8 ) all three
(you need a blank between "8" and ")" otherwise you get instead of "9)" with 8 instead of 9- it is just impossible to get 8 next to ) ).

Now suppose there are only three voters, and they voted for options 2, 3 and 4 respectively.

If one constructs column for each book, just as risi's columns except the first one one can see that for each book there is one "yes" and two "no"s. So each book is rejected!
Thus the decision which is taken is to add none of the book, option 1. This is similar but even more extreme that what happened in our case where we ended up with option 5 which had only one vote, while options 1 had three votes and option 6 had three also (two by "button voting" plus RK's "voting in her post", not to mention gollum). In my imaginary case, by democratic vote, the horizontal option 1 was obtained by excluding one book after the other.
But if one had artificially made a "no change" column as risi did, there would have been no vote at all for that column! So it would be even more "rejected" than each book separately.
But this preciselty shows that this column is not meaningful. Option 1 is a "horizontal" choice, "no" for each book, not a positive vote for a "no change" column. Such a column is not meaningful, each column consists in exactly one book, and one decides on each book in terms of the votes for or against it and then one collates the results.

[Ghost]

Instead of making post after post trying to figure how to determine the already casted votes you should start a new thread.


However would someone please tell me the reasoning of limiting the number of books in the quote game?

What do we gain by limiting the opportunity to read those beautiful quotes?

I always thought this game and the one in the Modesitt Forum encouraged reading the new releases and/or finding the old out-of-print books. It is good for the authors, it promotes buying books. The MQG has not such limit and he has over 50 full length novels published.


Prior to this thread I did not know there was a limit on what LMB book could be used.


Finally, what are you (we) going to do when someone (me) slips in a new book quote?