March 2011: The Curse of Chalion by Lois McMaster Bujold

[clong]

I hope everyone is busily reading along....

[MidasKnight]

I just got the book on Wednesday but am reading it now.

I've calculated I need to read 25 pages a night to finish on time.

I usually read 10 pages a night, but so far I'm staying on pace!!

[E Pericoloso Sporgersi]

I've calculated I need to read 25 pages a night to finish on time.

I usually read 10 pages a night, but so far I'm staying on pace!!

The farther you get, the harder it will be to stop at 25 pages!

[MidasKnight]

I could NOT find this book in any store. Finally had to go against my principles and order it.

[MidasKnight]

I finished last night.

The book was decent, not great. I think I let other people's enthusiasm for Bujold lead me to expect greatness and since it wasn't great, I felt disappointed. I might have enjoyed it more if my expectations were lower.

Not that it is a BAD book by any means. I just thought it was average.

It reads reasonable easily (once you figure out the naming conventions and some of the obscure but obvious words).

I thought a lot of things didn't make sense or were simply too cheesy when they weren't meant to be cheesy. For instance, why is Caz a lord if he has no land? Why would he cry uncontrollably like a baby early in the book then quickly attain a strong lord-type character about him? His character development was weird to say the least. Some of the sheer immediacy of things was very odd as well. Really? Nobody in the whole city questioned, nay, demanded a longer betrothal to Dondo? I understand why they tried to force a quick ceremony, but surely others (besides those immediately involved) would object. If dy Jironal had enemies (and the quick ceremony was to be to his advantage) why didn't anyone protest? And within a week or so, Caz talks the leader of Ibran to sneak his only heir into enemy territory? This makes no sense at all. Don't get me started on the sheer implausibility of Caz meeting the Ibran heir on a slave gallery (albeit unknowingly).

I rather liked the fact that Umegat was gay. It added a nice flavor to the story. But when dy Lutez and Iselle's father were also gay I thought "Ok, here's a woman writer feminizing the book." I started to expect Palli to make a pass at Caz.

The best part of the book was the clear reference at the end to Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. I would have missed the reference had we not read that book for this forum last year.


Overall, I am glad I read the book. I can now mark Bujold off my list. I doubt I'll be reading anymore of her books.

I give The Curse of Chalion a 4 if I'm in a good mood.

[voralfred]

Wow! That was a out-and-out charge!

Of course you don't have to like _CoC_, but before dismissing LMB, try some of the Vorkosiverse. Maybe begin with _Mountains of Mourning_. Although having some background on Miles, his father and grandfather would help to fully appreciate this novella (novelette? I'm not sure of the exact length separation between these two types of semi-short fiction), I read it long before I started reading the remainder of the Vorkosigan Saga, and I loved it. It is still my favorite of all LMB's works, and I love them all. Do give it a try, it is great.

As for your objections:
- the

implausibility of Caz meeting the Ibran heir on a slave gallery (albeit unknowingly)

I'll grant you. But note that this kind of "Deus ex machina" was used over and over by Molière, who is still the greatest French playwright ever. And did not the Bard himself use this kind of tricks occasionally?
Also remember, there are Gods in this Universe, so weird coincidences may be more than just coincidences. Remember Cazaril's last night in Gotorget, pages 392-393-394, just before the order for surrender arrived. This scene could even justify (years later) the Fox acceptance for his son's departure with Cazaril: Cazaril's prayer on that night.

Caz weeping uncontrollably for weeks just after escaping an appealing physical and moral ordeal is a reflection on the horror of this ordeal, not on Caz' personality. After recovering, months later, he can become himself again, a natural-born leader with a high sense of ethics. He had been beaten but not broken.

The enemies of the dy Jironal should ask for a longer betrothal? Maybe they would have. But where are they? Not in Cardegoss! Remember waht happened to the knights of Order of the Daughter who wanted to challenge Dondo's appointment. They had to flee! The dy Jironal may not control all of Chalion, they had opponents, but clearly they had full control of the capital city. Noone could raise a finger against them in Cardegoss

Ok, here's a woman writer feminizing the book.

The Order of the Bastard would naturally attract many gays. BTW, both Ias and dy Lutez are bisexual rather than gay. Ias, obviously, and we learn in _Paladin of Souls_ that dy Lutez was married and had at least a son. But in fact, in all of LMB's work there are not so many gay characters. The Athosians, perforce (unless they are totally abstinent). Also there is the implied notion that many Betans are bisexual, or even trisexual (what else to expect in a society that has gengineered hermaphrodites?). But "a woman writer feminizing" her books? Hardly!

_ Curse of Chalion_ is not my absolute LMB favorite, it is still _Mountains of Mourning_ (I would give that one a 10), but it is not far from the mark. I easily give it a 9.

[E Pericoloso Sporgersi]

Caz meeting the Ibran heir on a slave gallery

after escaping an appealing physical and moral ordeal

That doesn't sound so horrible to me.
Or should I suggest to Laurie to visit here? (and bring Thor's hammer?)

[voralfred]

Caz meeting the Ibran heir on a slave gallery

after escaping an appealing physical and moral ordeal

That doesn't sound so horrible to me.
Or should I suggest to Laurie to visit here? (and bring Tor's hammer?)

OK, OK, I meant "appalling", not "appealing" .. but the first one was MK's, I just copied it

And what do you have to say about the book?

[E Pericoloso Sporgersi]

And what do you have to say about the book?

In the beginning I wasn't sure what to think of it.
But once the girls got involved, I loved it.

Yes, yes, I'm an incurable romantic.

[clong]

As they say…To each his (or her) own. I first read this book five years ago or so, and count it one of my all time favorite fantasies.

I think Caz is a great character. This is partly because, just like Bujold’s memorable scifi antihero Miles, Caz is such a departure from type. What a relief not to have yet another adolescent male who turns out to be greatest wizard or swordsman or horseman or dragonrider ever. But it’s mainly because I found Caz to be believable and sympathetic. His combination of cynicism with a determination to do what is right resonates with me. Given some challenging experiences I have gone through in my own personal life in the last year or so (which experiences have fortunately not included a stint on a Roknari slave galley ) I found the character even more believable this time around. And it's not just Caz, I found many of the supporting characters intriguing and orginal and well sketched.

I hadn't even noticed the multiple homosexual (or bisexual) characters issue until you pointed it out. Bujold strikes me as an author who may be attacking judgemental or restrictive attitudes about sexuality but is certainly not out to make an ardent feminist or homosexual statement. (My review of Ethan of Athos is available here.)

And while the great coincidence that unravels the three deaths conundrum initially seems highly implausible, I found this book to be one where the more you think about it the better it works. How much fantasy hinges on prophecy? Here we have prophecy with free will, a man who in despair invites the gods to make use of him who gets taken up on his offer and accomplished something extraordinary in a way he didn't expect.

Having said all that, I struggled with the May-September romance (not unique in LMB’s oeuvre), and with Caz’s suspicion at the end that he will be cast aside (although in retrospect this seems more plausible to me today than it did when I first read the book). I also found the gods confusing in this book…thngs become clearer in the two sequels (both of which I liked very much, but Curse of Chalion remains my favorite book in the series).

[Algot Runeman]

May-September romance

Caz is only 35.

Maybe the appx. 15 year difference doesn't seem too much since my own parents were separated by that much, though both later in life.

Bujold quickly made me forget that this was a fantasy. Even with a Five-God belief system at the heart of the story, I was steadily drawn in by the characters and the challenges they had to meet. Can a soldier and sometime galley slave help a princess (royina) escape the family curse which has gradually crushed her mother, her uncle, her half-brother? I cared what happened right away and was pulled along all the way to the end.

I also suspect that a person should read Paladin of Souls, the second book of the series, to complete some of the issues raised in The Curse of Chalion.

[MidasKnight]

Let's push this a bit.

Discuss the character development of Caz.
Discuss how Caz's background is legitimate (why was I supposed to believe that a former high ranking officer would hope he could at least become a low ranking member of a household staff; "will she remember me?" (provincara) "I was a page at one time for the previous regime" (chalion) "oh THAT'S RIGHT, I was also a major military figure and oh yeah, EVERYBODY remembers me."
Discuss why the Fox's heir would sell the little brother as a slave rather than just kill him.

Help me understand!

[Algot Runeman]

Help me understand!

Caz has been emotionally crushed. He's physically drained and seeking only shelter. He doesn't "feel" like a former soldier of any rank. The story gradually reveals his past as he is, in fact, recognized. But he doesn't return a conquering hero. He slinks in as an emotional beggar. Care from others reawakens his deeper strengths as greater responsibilities are placed on his shoulders. That's the kind of character that is believable when it exposes itself gradually instead of being presented boldly. "Caz strode into town, head high, defiant, radiant in his glory instead of defeated by years as a slave." Caz doesn't begin the story as a hero; he grows into the role. He is a flawed character, as is her more well known character, Miles Vorkosigan.

Who are the "EVERYBODY" that remember Caz? The Provincara and her chief retainers, the di Jironal brothers, who were his military superiors and betrayers.

Unlikely events. Most science fiction and pretty much all fantasy books are littered with unlikely events. They are the basis of the plot throughout the genres. The appearance of the various gods in all of the Chalion series illustrate a plot support element of fantasy. Their interplay with the humans is what helps to define this book as fantasy, but also allows Bujold to explore themes that are unusual. Literature of any kind rarely tells the story of a mechanic's or migrant worker's typical daily schedule alone. If it begins there, it must grow, somehow. We are looking for the unusual, if not the heroic, when we read.

As to the heir of Ibra going into Chalion, he needs to be heroic, too, if he's going to be worthy of his potential bride. How dramatic would it have been if he'd come into Chalion being carried in a sedan chair wafting his scented hankie, only after the fight was won? Would his bride to be have seen him as her equal? None of that would have worked if he were dead. The Caz connection is unlikely, but chance is an author's tool.

The Curse of Chalion isn't perfect. It is carefully crafted, though, to give us insights into honor, duty, and personal sacrifice for the benefit of others.

[voralfred]

Discuss the character development of Caz.

Algot just anwered this better than I could ever do.
But just to add my grain of salt: Cazaril hopes to remind the Provincara of the time he was a page, not of his militry prowess because, from his point of view, his military career was rather a mess, and in practice it was. Palli remembers Caz as the inspiring leader he was, but in practice all his talents led him where? The campaigns he fought were all lost, not by Cazaril's fault, but they were lost. He held Gotorget against the siege, but the place was eventually sold, not by him, but still. So he has very little to show. The Provincara has a larger view, but after all these years as a galley slave Cazaril sees himself as a failure. All he hopes for is just a place to rest and try to modestly earn his keep.

Discuss why the Fox's heir would sell the little brother as a slave rather than just kill him.

Well, killing one's own brother may not be as psychologically easy as you think. Probably the Fox's eldest son recoiled at a direct murder. Maybe it is not really psychologically true (I understand that Achemenids kings, as well as Ptolemy dynasty pharaos, had no such hesitation at killing siblings), but this is not, by far, the only work of literature where such extremity is avoided by people who, otherwise, have very little ethics. I just recently read a SH story, "The Disappearance of Lady Frances Carfax" where the murderous couple could not bring themselves to actually kill their victim with their own hands, but opted to bury her alive instead. Literature is full of such examples. The case of one's own brother, at least, gives a strong psychological ground. Voldemort had dozens of occasions to get Harry Potter killed. Why did he not use any of these opportunities? For the plot, of course, even though the "official" reason was, he wanted to kill him himself, not through proxies. But this is not much better a reason as not killing one's own brother. Literature is full of similar situations.

[voralfred]

Discuss why the Fox's heir would sell the little brother as a slave rather than just kill him.

More on that. In Ruy Blas the totally corrupt Don Salluste has his cousin (not even his brother!) Don César sold as galley slave to the Barbaresque early in the play. Don César eventually returns and, albeit involuntarily wrings havoc in his cousin's machinations. For all we know, the Heir of Chalion wants to take his father's place but may otherwise be a nicer person than Don Salluste.
Anyway, If Victor Hugo did it, LMB may also do it.

[voralfred]

(...) For instance, why is Caz a lord if he has no land? (...)

This is just a small detail, but...
Cazaril is from a noble family. Empoverished, they had to sell their land, so he had to renounce the precise title of "Castillar" (owner of a castle) since he has no castle anymore. Only the dowager Provincara calls him Castillar (incidentally she insists on being called Provincara after her husband's death, when the title belongs to her daughter-in-law, which means she is not very particular about renouncing previously held titles that do not apply anymore). But the more vague title of "Lord"... we do not know the precise laws of Chalion about wearing such a title. Who says it is not customary to give it to anyone of a noble family, irrespective of whether holding land or not? Personally, I am not an expert on Chalion's etiquette...

[MidasKnight]

Thank you for the responses.

[Caroline Tredez]

Some more words about the "implausibility" of Bergon's sneaking into Chalion. The story of Iselle and Bergon has been inspired by the real lives of Isabella I of Castille and Ferdinand II of Aragon. Ferdinand really did sneak into his own country, disguised and with very few people, to marry Isabella, in secrecy so that her brother wouldn't know. And Isabella really "stole" the throne of Castille upon the last breath of her predecessor. In fact, a lot of the events surrounding Iselle and Bergon's wedding and seizing of the throne resemble real life (a lot more than I thought, although for obvious reason Bujold made it both more dramatic and with a better "end"). So either reality is unrealistic (and I won't argue that one) or fiction is actually quite plausible.

As for the rest, well, no accounting for taste, of course (mine runs toward cheesy romance, so of course it wasn't a deterent The more sugar, the better.)

[Algot Runeman]

Perhaps the book group is getting really connected.

Tor.com has a review of the book by Jo Walton.
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/03/gods-a ... of-chalion

[MidasKnight]

Geez, I feel so cheated.

I want to love this book; everyone else seems to.

I just don't get what draws everyone in and holds them, excites them.

I want to be less lunk-headed and love this book so that I'll run out and buy every Bujold I can find!!



... but alas ...

[Algot Runeman]

I want to love this book; everyone else seems to.

I've felt the same way many times. When I was young, my mom wanted me to read Charles Dickens. She loved his books. I tried. I think we were even assigned some readings during an English class at some point in high school. It was futile. None of what I read seemed interesting, much less exciting. I was reading adventure stories by writers of all sorts and got into science fiction. The vast expanses that science fiction opened for my imagination may have made Dickensian London too dull. It wasn't until thirty years later that I read A Tale of Two Cities and found myself engrossed to the point that I read the second half through the night in my hotel room while at a training session. I knew that lack of sleep would impair my training during the following day, but I couldn't force myself to stop until I finished the book at around six AM.

Something had changed in me during the thirty years. Nothing had changed about the work of Dickens.

Still, books don't all catch me. As an example, I'm completely unable to deal with Cormac McCarthy's Pulitzer Prize winner, The Road.

Maybe time will pass and I'll come to enjoy it, but in the meantime, I'll keep reading the new stuff that comes along. Once in a while I'll backtrack to a classic. It isn't just maturity that matters, though. Classics don't all do it for me, either, in spite of being in my mid sixties.

I'm currently enjoying, at some level, a series of books by Robert Buettner. Beginning with Orphanage, I've decided to keep reading even though I was initially put off by the near lack of logic of the science. However, once I realized that Buettner was writing in the same style as the science fiction of the pulps of the 40s and 50s, I relaxed and went with the basic story. I'm hooked now, by the end of the third book of the series, and will carry on just to see how things turn out.

Sometimes, that seems to be the way that it goes with reading.

I would recommend that you don't abruptly give up on Bujold, though. Maybe her science fiction will be more enjoyable than the fantasy world of Chalion.

[voralfred]

(...)
I want to be less lunk-headed and love this book so that I'll run out and buy every Bujold I can find!!



... but alas ...

Well, "De gustatis et coloribus non disputandum", if you don't like "Curse of Chalion", it just means that your taste is towards different things!

The only thing I would advise you, if you don't appreciate her Fantasy, is to try her SF. To me, "Mountains of Mourning" is the quintessence of LMB's writing. There is a scene which I cannot reread without a lump forming in my throat, and I cannot count how many times I reread it. Sure, one would understand this novella better with some background on the history of Barrayar, (which determined its sociology), Miles' family's involvment in this history, and Miles physical disabilities. Still, the first time I read it, it was the first book I ever read in the Vorkosigan Saga, and it struck me as incredibly moving. So just try it. Or ,even shorter, if you can get hold of the Epilogue of "Shards of Honor", called "Aftermaths" (not to be confused with the epilogue of Cryoburn) you can have a taste of her humanism.