Book Discussion: "The Jesus Family Tomb"

A well known polymath whose published works range far and wide, including (but not limited to) Archaeology, Paleontology, Astronomy, Space Propulsion systems, and Science Fiction.

Official Website: http://www.charlespellegrino.com

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the jesus family tomb

Postby moonflower » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:45 pm

Regarding the purple fibers found -

I thought that "special" people in those times had their clothes dyed purple with secretions of the murex snail. Maybe someone thought the shroud's owner was "special" and had it dyed.

Was there another way to get purple dye into cloth then?
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Postby voralfred » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:49 am

tollbaby wrote:This may be a case of an uneducated hick venturing into some very deep waters....

but if we're talking about THE shroud...? There was no temple ritual involved there, as I recall (again, I could be entirely wrong). So who would care if there were impure fibers in the shroud?


Well, that is just my point. This is not a Tempel ritual, so any fixator would be OK, including urine.
And as for moonflower questions: yes, why not using murex to dye purple the clothes of a special person? No problem about that.
The point of my discussion with Pr. Pellegrino is about the fixator used: he found urine, which is OK for a shroud, or even clothes. Again I am certainly not disputing what he found.

My only objection was that he suggested that would be the "Biblical Tekhelet", by which I understood the very special dye (dye source, whether murex or other+ dying procedure including fixator) used for the High Priest vestments in his Service in the Temple , as explained at length in Leviticus, for instance. There must have been some other fixator than urine for that. I have no idea what they used, but not urine. I'm sure there must have been some other ways, even at that time!
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Postby Charlie P. » Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:50 pm

I'm working on the tomb today - and on some related artifacts: And all I can think to say is that this thing is a series of fractal mysteries that know no end. I said two months ago that my brain was beginning to hurt. My brain still hurts.

I've recently arrived at a "temporary alternative explanation RE 'Judah[s], son of Jesus' truce," with some guys from the Pontifical Academy of Sciences and some Jesuit and Franciscan types.

This is a good thing. They're really interested in exploring the details, and finding out what it all means. It turns out that the Vatican has known about this tomb, but lost track of it about 900 years ago. All that was known involved the skulls of three knights in a geometric reflection of the symbol on the antechamber wall.

To the French Jesuits, the symbol has always meant, "Jesus savior of man." I was asked if there was a second symbol represented by a triangle and a circle. Yes. You can see it on the cover of the book: below the circle in the chevron - about the diameter of the circle, with a dohnut-sized circle inside. I had reconstructed it from its dynamite blasted remnants; but Simcha had believed what remained was not difinitive enough. The Jesuits said that the triangle-orb should have been there, and that it represented the completion of the Temple by Jesus' body after three days in the original tomb - near Jerusalem's Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

This iceberg is big. Really big.

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Postby haelwen1 » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:39 am

That would certainly explain masonic rituals of resurrection. I can see where a symbol will gradually be modified throughout time but the basic meaning to the people will remain the same. You need to help Dan Brown write his next book...I am shy and have taken a lot of verbal abuse and social stigma for my beliefs. The name of that iceberg is ignorance.....
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Postby Darb » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:33 pm

Charlie P. wrote:The Jesuits said that the triangle-orb should have been there, and that it represented the completion of the Temple by Jesus' body after three days in the original tomb - near Jerusalem's Church of the Holy Sepulchre


So ... that seems partially consistent with some of the speculation I posted up at the top of this thread, with the circle being a representation of the perfect and eternal (soul), and the chevron being connotative of both the vault of the heavens ... or, as your associates seem to imply, the pediment/roof of the metaphorical temple, or perhaps the lid of his tomb itself. Completion in death & transformation/ascension to the eternal/perfect. The alternate idea of similarities with the eye of providence seems to lessen a bit now.
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Postby Darb » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:38 pm

haelwen1 wrote:That would certainly explain masonic rituals of resurrection ... I am shy and have taken a lot of verbal abuse and social stigma for my beliefs.


Please feel free to elaborate ... by PM, if you're more comfortable.
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Postby Charlie P. » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:38 pm

I will elaborate in the not-too-distant future. I promise. Finishing up next phase of research during the next two months or so, and then it's off to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That's nice: A little more work on Jesus - and then, back to apocalypse. - Charlie P.
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Postby voralfred » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:41 pm

Charlie P. wrote:My apologies. The project is going dark again; but only for a little while.
- - CRP



Has enough time gone by that we can know about the labs results that were so exciting? That was six months ago.
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Tomb Results

Postby Charlie P. » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:29 pm

Reports now mostly written up and submitted - some to recent Jerusalem symposium. My apologies for having sort of dropped off the face of the Earth for a while. This (combined with start-up projects in Hiroshima and Nagasaki) have been even more all-absorbing than the Titanic expeditions.

Again, my apologies for having been more or less a phantom these past six months. When I get a good puzzle, I sort of lock on like a terrier - and except for Mary and the kids, most of the world sort of disappears. Wow. It's almost Spring already.

See you later,
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Postby voralfred » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:55 pm

I understand it is still too early to give us information about your finds, but I do appreciate your prompt answer to my query. I'm staying tuned in for further developments.
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Postby Charlie P. » Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:49 pm

These are just a few of the recent fascinating developments: Jesuit scholars have brought to my attention a finding that the unique patina fingerprint from the Talpiot Tomb (the method of patina fingerprinting now being demonstrated precisely enough to provide corroborative dating, and now involved in the courts RE the return of looted artifacts to their countries of origin) - is present, in both phases, on the Turin Shroud. We have now identified fibers from two shrouds of two types, inside bioconcretions from the Jesus ossuary: the humble, burlap-like material, and the second larger shroud (as indicated by trace fiber evidence) made of linen woven from flax on a loom contaminated with cotton - also consistent with composition of the Turin Shroud (note that shroud material from other ossuaries was woven from wool). We now have a new carbon-14 date on a single fiber from an acceptable region of the Turin Shroud: approximately second century AD bracketing the first century. This has my attention; but I want ten more fiber samples from the central regions, to see if we get the same result (the old test that yielded a Medieval age was conducted on a section of Shroud corner documented as repeatedly rewoven to repair cuts given away over the past 400 years, mostly as gifts to cardinals and patrons... when a Jesuit asked me if I would ever have accepted such a sample, I replied with a resounding, "No"). Mt DNA from the Jesus ossuary appears to be of blood origin: We're hoping for permission to test fibers from one of the more than 200 Turin blood stains (they're another whole forensics story: I highly recommend Dr. Zugibe's book on the subject) - to see whether or not there is a mtDNA match with the Jesus ossuary.

Patina results indicate that two shrouds were removed intact from the Jesus ossuary about 80-100 years into the tomb's terra rossa phase - approximately consistent with Saladin's recapture of Jerusalem from the crusaders, and with the burning of many Christian relics throughout Jerusalem. The Jesuits have known about the tomb for centuries; but they did not know that it still existed, or exactly where it was located. They were long familiar with the antechamber symbol (a post-crusade glyph meaning, "Jesus savior of man), and they knew of the three skulls in the central chamber - whom they long regarded as evil-doers RE Isaiah 53's prophecy (Fr. MacQuitty sees the congruence as a sign that this must become a time of reconciliation). They have revealed complete copies of gospels associated with Philip: In one of them, Didymos Judas Thomas is indicated as an adopted son of Jesus and he was clearly (according to the text) never given power or authority to marry or beget children of his own - but he told the apostles that one of the cornerstones of charity and faith was the adoption of orphas. The text states at one point, "Jesus adopted unto himself a son and called him brother." Under Roman law of the time, this makes perfect sense: If a father attracted too much attention and was executed as a contender for kingship (sedition), as was Jesus, then the Romans - who recognized no distinction between adoption and blood (note that the then-current emperor, Tiberius, was Augustus' adopted son) - killed all chidren down to infancy. But they also acted with a quirk unique to their civilization The Romans always let brothers and sisters live.

So, many of our original conclusions are changing (for this is the difference between science and faith: scientific conclusions are subject to change under the weight of new evidence). I agree with Tal Ilan that Mariamene (a woman called an apostlistic name and associated in Philip texts with Magdalene) was probably not married to Jesus, because as the apocrypha (and even canon) suggest, such a relationship diminishes her, if her strength as an apostlistic leader came by virtue of a supposed marriage to Jesus and not of her own virtue.

The fiber evidence from the Jesus ossuary, repeatedly and repeatedly, indicates that none of the pristine fibers encountered so far were ever penetrated to any extent at all by the residuua of decay during a process of primary burial (another congruence with the Shroud of Turin). A bishop recently passed word to me that we had "proved the resurrection." As I said to Fathers Fernando and Macquitty, I have done nothing of the sort - adding that if I ever became a man of faith (I am still militantly agnostic) I would fear that I might at least unconsciously be approaching the Talpiot Tomb with an agenda no longer based on doubt and on trying to explain it away - with the result that my science would almost certainly become flawed. I would therefore have to recuse myself at once from further scientific investigation of the artifacts and trace evidence. The reply was that I had probably found my parton saint in the Talpiot Tomb: Didymos Judas Thomas, also called Doubting Thomas.

In other recent developments: An archaeologist who characterized himself as "a Catholic Evangelist" had to be restrained from an attempt to prove the "Jesus son of Joseph" ossuary inscription a recent forgery (by me and/or by others) by scraping the inscription and much of the ossuary's patina away with metal tools. National Geographic cameras happened to catch the would-be vandal on film. Gee, ain't we a wonderful species?

Stay tuned,
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Postby tollbaby » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:33 pm

Base human nature: We must destroy that which we do not understand :( I wish more would rise above that animalistic tendency.
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Postby voralfred » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:22 am

Dear Professor Pellegrino, please confirm I understand you correctly.

Your laboratory results indicate that there was never human remains in the ossuary, but only two shrouds.
Moreover these shrouds were never exposed to a decomposed body, so though they were at some point in contact with a body that left blood stains on them, they were either never in contact with a dead body, or if they were it was only for a short time after death.
One of these shrouds is made of flax contaminated with cotton (but not wool, so it does not violate any religious prohibition) and is consistent with the Turin Shroud. The medieval carbon-14 dating of the latter is based on fibers coming from repaired areas and not from untouched parts, and a first century dating is possible.
The other shroud was of coarse burlap.

I have two questions, maybe I missed their answers in previous posts:
- do you have indication as to a possible present location of the coarse burlap shroud?
- what do you mean by
the unique patina fingerprint from the Talpiot Tomb (...) - is present, in both phases, on the Turin Shroud.

(emphasis mine)
Could you elaborate on the phrase "both phases"?
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Postby Charlie P. » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:42 am

Confirmed. I've been spending much of the past year trying to explain it all away; but it's been the most fascinating series of failures I've ever known. If anything has become more fascinating than exploring the Titanic, this is it.

Unknown what became of the simple, straw-based shroud. I've given the Jesuit and Franciscan scholars an upper limit (despite all the compelling congruences) of about probability 50% that the Turin Shroud is one of the missing shrouds from the Jesus ossuary (and confirmed: not one of the fibers from the Jesus ossuary was ever in contact with decay products from a body; not one of them - - and this is only the beginning of the fascinating biological anomalies). However, 50% is quite significant. I asked Father Fernando if he would be willing to play a game of Russian roulette with half the chambers in a revolver loaded (ignoring for the moment that he's a Catholic and would not consider such games). No, he wouldn't play against those odds. Put another way, imagine increasing your mortgage intrerest payments next month by 50%. Wouldn't you scream?

Interestingly, when I said the evidence appeared consistent with the removal of a very large volume of anomalously pristine cloth from the Jesus ossuary about the time of Saladin's recapture of Jerusalem, and when I asked a Jesuit when the first definitive descriptions of the Turin Shroud originated, he presented documentation that this was about four years after Saladin. He then told me that one of the great criticisms, with regard to the Shroud, was the question of where it had been hiding for more than a thousand years and why it did not show up until just after the crusades.

There is much more, including recent pollen evidence (some of it embedded in the apatite phase of the Turin Shroud's patina). There are two patina phases on the Shroud: an apatite phase unique to formation by Jerusalem ("chalk") limestone (the phase in the Talpiot Tomb is about 1000 years) - followed by a brief (roughly 80 - 100 years) terra rossa phase - which is so far utterly unique to the Talpiot Tomb. The evidence suggests that the Tomb was entered more than once. The terra rossa phase began with people entering, treating the tomb reverently, moving some of the ossuaries and putting them back but departing with two ossuary lids, removing the ossuary niche seal stones, and leaving behind three skulls (evidently crusader period) in a triangle on the floor (with finger bones and other small bones in the middle) in a geometric reflecton of the antechamber symbol. (The symbol was adopted by Templars and then by French Jesuits as a glyph, meaning, "Jesus savior of man.") According to the evidence, the tomb appears to have been entered at least twice during the crusader period (initially, we had thought in terms of only one entry). Interestingly, French Jesuits knew of the symbol and the honor guard of three knight's skulls all along. (Even the Arthur myth spoke of three knights left behind as an honor guard with the grail... btw: The grail legend appears to have been about a cup after all.)

So, you can see now why I've been sort of missing in action for a while - just drawn in by all these interesting developments.

See you later,
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The Shroud, Mandylion and Cloth of Oveido

Postby qraal » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:46 pm

Hi Charlie P

I've only recently come across your forum so sorry for a late posting to this thread. I've been following Shroud research for years and I have a few questions relating to your interpretation of the Tomb and the history of the Shroud post 1st Century. Currently Shroud researchers, like Barrie Schwortz and Ian Wilson, believe the Shroud might have been the Holy Mandylion and associated with the Sudarium of Oveido. What do you think of the idea that the Shroud was kept in Edessa, then Constantinople?
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Postby Charlie P. » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:22 pm

There are descriptions of "Veronica's Veil" and other pieces of cloth related to Jesus going back almost to the time of Constantine. Many were probably fakes of the robe, and other "relics." What I asked of the Jesuits was simply this: When do we have our first description of something, in detail, that is definitively the Turin Shroud with the Turin Man's front and back image. What I was told was that such descriptions date from about 4 - 6 years after Saladin recaptured Jerusalem. This is not proof of origin; but it is consistent. It also seems to explain one of the great questions used to discredit the Turin Shroud (and hence, possibly, the required origin of an answer from the devout that tried to fill the missing millennium of the Shroud's history with every legend even remotely resembling a Jesus related cloth): "If the Turin Shroud is real - where was it all those centuries and why did it not definitively appear until just after the Crusades?" The possibility that, sacred to the apostles, it lay hidden, inside the "Jesus son of Joseph" ossuary, inside the Talpiot Tomb - all those years up to the Crusades - just might answer that question... if the Turin Shroud is real (which is still a very big if).

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Other Shrouds

Postby qraal » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Hi Charles

That answers my question, and leaves a lot more open - thanks!

What is your considered opinion, as a scientist, on the Shroud? Most of my current information has come from Daniel Porter's website...

Shroudstory

...which is well worth a look, as he was the first to alert me to Ray Rogers work on the C14 sample site being a much later patch.

Personally I think the evidence is for it being a genuine 1st Century burial shroud, but the link between it and Jesus can be doubted unless the Talpiot Tomb can be shown to have contained the Shroud, then the historical chain is unbroken. However it does seem odd that the visual similarity between the Shroud and 6th Century icons is so strong if the Shroud was shut away for 1,000 years.
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Postby Charlie P. » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:24 pm

More details are above and on other threads in this discussion group, related to the Talpiot Tomb. At this point, given the unique biological anomalies in fiber traces recovered from Jesus ossuary bio-concretions - (all consistent with the Turin fibers), and other evidence including consistent patina fingerprint, and a tentative date on one fiber collected on sticky tape from the Turin Shroud (bracketing 1st century AD) - to say nothing of the fact that that I would never have accepted the cuts for the C-14 tests allowed by Cardinal Pellegrino over 20 years ago (too many recorded cuts and reweaves during the past 400 years, in the permitted sampling corner) - I'm willing to give it a maximum probability ceiling of 50%, that the Turin Shroud (regardless of whether or not the image of the Turin man is a Medieval artistic enhancement over the blood stains), is real and is original with the Jesus ossuary.

Much more data is required, to either negate or confirm this. One random fiber that seems to date, by C-14, from the right period (the shroud being consistent with wool weaves from another Jerusalem tomb and with flax herringbone weaves from Masada fabric) has my attention. Very well, then. What we await is permission to date ten more fibers from random points on the Turin Shroud, along with some blood stained fibers to see if mtDNA can be recovered and matches mtDNA from the Jesus ossuary bio-concretions. Jesiuts and Franciscans, by the way, have been extremely supportive and helpful, during the past year, with research on the Talpiot Tomb and apocrypha related to it. Also on Turin.

By the way: in answer to lies that the drive-by Media machines have told you (and by this I refer, among others, to the inventor of the term, "drive-by media," Rush Limbaugh):

Item: Most Americans believe that we scientists claimed to have found bones in the Jesus Ossuary (and a quote that someone created, originally, as a joke was falsely attributed to me: "Bones of Jesus found. Easter canceled"). In fact, I not only failed to find a trace of bone in the Jesus ossuary bio-concretions; but all fiber evidence is counter-indicative of decay products from a process of primary burial and decay. The only bone fragment recovered from a bio-concretion in this ossuary is consistent (based on extreme hemispherical curvature) with a metacarpal. Even if only coincidentally consistent with the blood image evidence of metacarpals popped loose from the Turin Man's wrists like wisdom teeth, it is nonetheless hauntingly consistent with what crucifixion would have left behind (blood, skin, and metacarpals). The one definitive conclusion I am willing to stand by is that the Jesus ossuary was missing skeletal remains decayed from a body. That is, we are missing a body and all that appears to have been laid in the ossuary in the first place are two shrouds of unusual composition - again, one of them uniquely consistent with the Turin fabric (flax woven on a loom contaminated with cotton - and which has remained mysteriously un-invaded by black mold, and unoxidized, and supple).

Item: You have been told that scientists have "proved" the statistics and the patina evidence misguided and in fact wrong. False. Just do a Google search of scientific papers by me, Feuverger, and others, in peer-reviewed journals and in the January 2008 Jerusalem Symposium Proceedings. Indeed, patina evidence is beginning to stand up quite well through further tests, and even in court proceedings (including return of the James ossuary and Egyptian antiguities to museums in their governments of origin). NOTE: Thus far, no two tombs even in the same soilt types of the Jerusalem hills have cross-matching patina fingerprints. The only consistent approx 1000 year apatite patina phase from Jerusalem chalk followed by a terra rossa phase, thus far, occurrs on the fibers of the Turin Shroud (which is, in fact, consistent with approx. 80-100 years of exposure to terra rossa patina formation before it was finally removed from the Talpiot Tomb).

ITEM: As for the initial conclusion that Mariamne was the wife of Jesus and was really Philip's sister, Mary Magdalene, revisions of this model based on new evidence, have been completely ignored, if not outright muzzled. Only half of this statement (Mariamene was Mary Magdalene and married to Jesus) is supported by the apocropha: the connection of Mary Magdalene to Mariamene. The recently provided Philip apocrypha (Vatican), combined with writings from Nag Hammadi (see James) and with the Gospels of John and Matthew, seem to rule against a marriage. Though the apocryphal Gospels of Philip describe a close relationship, they state clearly that, according to beliefs of the time, Jesus was never given authority (presumably by God) to be married and to beget. Instead, he preached adoption as a cornerstone of charity - and he "adopted a son unto himself and called him brother," in fulfilment of a prophecy that, as he and James were adopted by Joseph (and in the Apocryphon of James, as James was adopted by Mary), Jesus was to adopt a son. This goes back also to the prophecy of Isaiah 53. The annointed one, if it was Jesus, was to be born through Mary's line of descent (hence the two genelogies given by Luke - for Joseph's line was cursed by the 550BC loss of Jerusalem to Babylon)... he was to be pierced overlooking Jerusalem, and from the place of his piercing he would behold his male heir (or seed). In Roman law, having an adopted son and calling him brother (or twin, or beloved disciple) would have made perfect sense. If a father was killed for sedition, the Romans killed adopted and biological children and grandchildren - but through an unusual quirk, they, alone among civilizations, allowed siblings to live. (The Romans recognized no distinction between adoption and blood - - remember, Tiberius was Augustus' adopted son). This adopted son appears to bave been Didymos Judas Thomas, the "twin" of Jesus and the "beloved disciple." So, we should expect to see an inscription reading, "Judas, son of Jesus." (Didymos is Greek for "twin" and "Te-om" is Hebrew for "twin"). And finally, we were all a bit too Da Vinci-coded out, two years ago. Current conclusion: no marriage indicated between Mariamene (Magdalene) and Jesus, and an adopted son with what I should expect to see as non-matching DNA, if the evidence from the Talpiot Tomb remains consistent with ancient texts.

ITEM: most Americans have been told that this tomb contradicts the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Wrong. Even in the Gospel of John, this is indicated as only a temporary tomb. Only a decade after the events, the walls of Jerusalem expanded beyond the current location of ther Church and all ossuaries in those caves (which still exist, archaeologically, beneath the Church) had to be moved to new family tombs. The Tombs of Talpiot all have patios, by the way, just as described in Gosp. J.; and it should be noted that Talpiot is a hill overlooking the Temple Mount and overlooking nearby Bethlehem also - in the opposite direction. Most interestingly, the Discourse of St. John on the passing of Mary specifically states that Mary's shroud was taken to a new family tomb in the hills outside Jerusalem. John also mentions two apostles who came to Mary's death bed, at the ends of their own lives - Matthew from the west, and Didymos Judas Thomas from India. The Talpiot Tomb has ossuaries inscribed with the names of "Judas, son of Jesus" and Matthew, alongside Maria. Consistent, and compelling. Similarly compelling is that other close (and seemingly family related apostles) named in Disc. John as having died and been buried far from Jerusalem (including Philip) are not named in the Talpiot Tomb (bearing in mind, of course, that the tomb has a small minority of un-inscribed ossuaries).

ITEM: The media have taught Americans that the cross mark on the Jesus ossuary (and the cross in the chapel of Herculaneum's "House of Justa") cannot be what Christians think of as crosses - but must instead represent "mason's marks" or something else, because the symbol of a Roman instrument of humiliation and execution cannot have become sacred in the first century. Really? The evidence from the Jesus ossuary points to a missing body (to me, Ocham's razor points to a body thief, evidently without the knowledge of the apostles - see Matthew's last chapters). If the followers of Jesus believed very early that Jesus had defeated the cross and turned it into an symbol of triumph over death - well, of course it would have become as sacred as the two shrouds (sans body) placed in Jesus' ossuary.

ITEM: In any case, as regards the Talpiot Tomb (and in particular the Jesus ossuary), a shroud or two there appear to have been, and much blood - but Jesus is not here. I am not religious - not at all; but the story that has been hidden by drive-by media types, is that we scientists of the Talpiot expeditions have found exactly what people of faith said we ought to have expected to find all along.

ITEM: The drive-by media have distorted James Cameron and Simcha Jakobovici into cartoonish shadows of themselves, and depicted both as wandering idiots. Simcha and Jim are in fact two of the most polymathic thinkers I have known anywhere on the planet. Of course we don't always agree but that in itself is always, always fascinating. For a start, Jim is a damned good designer of propulsion systems, deep ocean robots, and mars landing systems. And for a scale of intelligence, no one will deny that deep-ocean explorer Robert Ballard is a true genius. I've sailed with him. He's not on my list of the top 20 brilliant minds I have known. Jim and Simcha are. (In fact, Jim and Arthur C. Clarke are both ahead of Stephen Jay Gould, and that's saying a lot [note that death does not remove one from that list])

ITEM: The drive-by media have stated time and again that the mockers of this tomb - and most notably Dr. Joe Zias (definitely not on the list) - are level-headed and honest archaeologists acting without bias and from nothing except legitimate scientific skepticism. Truth time: When the wife of Dr. Gat, the discoverer of the tomb, stated at the January 2008 symposium that her late husband had known at once that he'd stumbled upon the tomb of the Holy Family but wanted to bury the find because he was afraid of precisely the kind of mockery we have seen (and perhaps worse), I received the following from rational Dr. Zias: Begging my assistance, while dismissing Mrs. Gat's statement as originating from an unbalanced and manipulated widow, he attached a picture of an ossuary, along with the caption, "On his throne." It was a photograph of an ossuary from the tomb, inscribed with the name, "Jesus." Dr. Zias had photographed it mounted on a toilet, in what appeared to be an unusually dirty gas station bathroom.

On this subject, more scientific findings shall be published. More and more of them.

Stay tuned,
- - Charlie Pellegrino
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Postby Charlie P. » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:19 pm

When all is said and done, the history of civilization is written in the perversion of nature. It might also be said, today, that we are writing it in the perversion of every prophet's lessons. Every one of them.

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John Michell made a similar point

Postby qraal » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:25 am

Hi Charlie

John Michell made a similar point in his books on sacred geometry and gematria (numerical value codes of words in Hebrew/Greek) in the 'Bible'. He spoke of the use of Jesus's teachings and the cult of personality around him generating his anti-thesis, the Anti-Christ, via the "play of opposites". Jungian depth psychology basically, but backed by the odd gematria codes in the "Apocalypse" - the Anti-Christ is a distorted 'reflection' of Jesus, but in opposition to him.

Now whether that means "the Church", "the Pope" or any Church and any Leader trying to stand in place of Christ is a matter of interpretation. Personally I think we see 'Antichrist' manifest wherever Christians let themselves be influenced by the urge to libel other believers over their petty differences of opinion - Protestant vs Catholic vs Mormon vs JW vs... anyone really. "Satan"/"Devil" or 'diabolos' meant a legal accuser in the heavenly court originally - Satan inspires the urge to indignantly accuse others over their faults, and uses that to divide "the Body of Christ".

Scientifically this all makes perfect sense as a close read of Howard Bloom's "The Lucifer Principle" and "The Global Brain" reveal - odd that books written by an atheist reveal Satan's MO so clearly. "Satan" in evolving troops of primates is the urge to topple the current leadership, to subvert the dominant paradigm, and the "will to power" that takes hold of some people so intensely they become 'Hitlers', 'Stalins' and 'Pol Pots'.

Just a few thoughts.

Charlie P. wrote:When all is said and done, the history of civilization is written in the perversion of nature. It might also be said, today, that we are writing it in the perversion of every prophet's lessons. Every one of them.

- - Charlie P.
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Postby Charlie P. » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:10 pm

Fascinating points. Personaly, though I am not a Christian, The Talpiot Tomb really does seem to all but prove that the Family of Jesus did exist and was not a bit of Roman theatre grown out of control. The total absence of decay products or the residuua of deteriorating bones in each and every pristine fiber in the Jesus ossuary bioconcretions (though I believe a body thief and other possible explanations weigh far and ahead of resurrection), are consistent with what people of faith say we scientists ought to have found.

Except for that often misused Matthew part about bringing not peace, but a sword (which really makes sense only in the context of prophecies about the fall of Rome), I have found, during an archaeological odyssey that required me to read everything Jesus was ever quoted as saying, that his basic message is one to behave by. I could say the same about most ancient prophets, so long as their words are not twisted into hatred - - which is easy to do, considering that all of them began with the typical Sethian journey, from anger and rage toward increasing stages of mercy - including Jesus (if one reads the infancy Gospel of Thomas) and Mohammad, and especially Peter. The distortion comes from too much quoting, out of context, the earlier, angrier parts of the journey - prior to growth and enlightenment.

I've heard a lot of American Evangelical extremists quoting Jesus out of context, with regard to the false claim that we scientists have announced finding the skeleton of Jesus - "Vengeance is mine, saieth the Lord." This phrase was used specifically with refrence to death threats against a Jewish archaeologist on our team. It's also an example of how just, plain two-plus-two-equals-three stupid some people can be. Jesus was telling his apostles that vengeance was not for humans to seek against other humans, or even for Jesus as he went to the cross - - for only his Lord could judge man, and deliver vengeance.

We humans, struggling down here on Earth, too easily forget the last message, at that last Passover dinner: "Love one another."

- - Charlie P.
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Room for Scepticism & Faith

Postby qraal » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:52 pm

Hi Charlie

On your first point, I think God has given us evidence - the Tomb and the Shroud - but has also given us enough room to either believe his faithful apostles' message "Jesus lives" or to doubt and be left wondering what did happen to the body. Some Christians believe in a 'spiritual resurrection' anyway, which makes the body's fate irrelevant - but in evidential terms a Resurrection Body's appearances are no less matters of faith than a spiritual body's manifestations, and I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference.

The important message is that God has done something unprecedented in Jesus, has brought forth the possibility of eternal life for all, and calls us all to respond in faith to that call. I rejoice that there is evidence for some very central facts of Christianity - Jesus and his family - but there can never be hard historical proof of Jesus being raised to New Life. Only faith can close the evidentiary gap for any of us. And that's a gift of God.

Charlie P. wrote:Fascinating points. Personaly, though I am not a Christian, The Talpiot Tomb really does seem to all but prove that the Family of Jesus did exist and was not a bit of Roman theatre grown out of control. The total absence of decay products or the residuua of deteriorating bones in each and every pristine fiber in the Jesus ossuary bioconcretions (though I believe a body thief and other possible explanations weigh far and ahead of resurrection), are consistent with what people of faith say we scientists ought to have found.


On your final point I can only agree. Violent apocalypticism entrances so many wannabe firebrands and reactionary demagogues, but it seems far from Jesus' heart message.

Charlie P. wrote:Jesus was telling his apostles that vengeance was not for humans to seek against other humans, or even for Jesus as he went to the cross - - for only his Lord could judge man, and deliver vengeance.

We humans, struggling down here on Earth, too easily forget the last message, at that last Passover dinner: "Love one another."

- - Charlie P.


You're closer to faith than some who say all the right words. No one who searches for truth honestly can, in the long run, be against the Spirit of Truth, regardless of creed.

Adam
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Patina Fingerprinting

Postby Adonai » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:26 pm

Charlie,

You wrote that at the Suffolk County CSI office, you were attempting to prove, or disprove whether the Patina sample taken from the Talpiot tomb can be isolated and fingerprinted. Thus opening a new door to the science of crime scene investigation. Has this theory been resolved?

Maybe I should just finish reading the book :?

-J
How can I believe in God when only last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?

-W.A.
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Postby Charlie P. » Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:58 pm

Patina fingerprinting has indeed developed since the publication of the book. Indeed, it has not only become, via an expanded data base, a corroborative dating method; but rapidly developing variations on the method (now revealing fine layers within patina layers) can identify suflur signatures from specific volcanic eruptions (AD 79, AD 535) and even chemical signatures of draught conditions. Presently, the method is becoming instrumental in repatriating artifacts looted from specific archaeological sites to museums in their countries of origin.
- - Charlie P.
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More Shroud News

Postby qraal » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:44 am

Seems records of the Knights Templar trials reveal an interesting artefact in their possession, sounding suspiciously like the Shroud...

Turin Shroud link with Templars proved by archives, claims historian

...another nail in the coffin of the Medieval fake theory. Wonder if the Vatican will allow a new scientific examination next year?
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