Should we extend the LMBQG?

[voralfred]

However would someone please tell me the reasoning of limiting the number of books in the quote game?

So that players have a fighting chance to guess them.

Finally, what are you (we) going to do when someone (me) slips in a new book quote?

Probably, fail to guess it, and it will go . Then you'll offer a new one that will go , too.
And then players will lose interest, and do something else.

I don't know how many players there are in the MQG. But there are presently exactly eight of us here, since clong and marcyb have not posted anywhere on the forum for months. If some of us start to lose interest, how long can this game go on?

I just posted a new quote. Hint: it is not from one of the "newly added" books, but from either Vorkosiverse or Chalion World.
viewtopic.php?p=1847203#1847203
If I don't see any answer within a few days, I'll start giving hints.

But how many hints would be necessary for a quote from, say, "Dreamweaver Dilemma" (the story, not the collection)? I read it, I liked it, but it did not impress me as much as, say, the book from which my latest quote is taken. Have you guessed the latter yet? Though I'm sure you read that book more often than you read "Dreamweaver Dilemma".

Now I did not choose an indifferent sentence, just to make the point that one can find "unfindable" quotes even in Vorkosiverse or Chalion World.

I chose one that I believe is reasonably hard, but not "indifferent". It is an emotionally high point in the book, or more precisely, it leads the way to an emotionally high point, when YYY decides whether or not to help XXX and explains why, just a few lines later.

The point I want to make is that there is no lack of "findable", but interestingly difficult quotes. I hope that when the quote is guessed, the one who guesses it will think "Oh, a hard one, that was interesting, that was fun", not "Oh, too easy". But if noone finds it and it grows cold, what is the point of asking?

[SPetty]

But if noone finds it and it grows cold, what is the point of asking?

So that people will spend the time looking for the quote, and maybe rediscover old favorites?

I don't have any problem with your analysis of the vote. Based on the voting, it seems to be the most democratic choice. I just found it ironic.

I do wish my library had a copy of Dreamweaver's Dilemma. Now I'm curious.


Suzette

[voralfred]

I do wish my library had a copy of Dreamweaver's Dilemma.

My point, precisely...

Besides, you are the one who wrote this:

"Go safely. See you back at ZZZ, eh?" XXX glanced at YYY. "Live, and so confound our enemies."

Book?
Who is XXX?
Who is YYY?
What or who is ZZZ?

Hmmm... I spent a few days searching the passages I expected it to be in, and finally gave up and searched amazon.com. It's in the book I thought, but the participants in the conversation are other than I expected. I'm thinking I disqualified myself from answering.

Suzette

Though I commend you for your impeccable ethics, since you disqualified yourself, this does not strike me as a case of

people will spend the time looking for the quote, and maybe rediscover old favorites?

In that case, I had also almost guessed the book.
I had decided it had to be either Mirror Danse or Barrayar, and I was convinced, correctly, that those were Cordelia's words, but it was not to Mark before he returned to Jackson' Whole, nor to Aral after Negri's death, nor to Kly at some point of their trek... and I more or less gave up. I stopped looking, thinking someone else would find it, or that risi would eventually post a hint. And those are two books I must have read half a dozen times each. So a quote in DD that I read once years ago?
Fortunately RK came along.....

[Ragua]

Gaaahh! Sorry I spaced it! One of the anonymous votes was I (me?). I voted for sticking to Vorkosiverse and Chalion.

I think.

My mind is going: we're in the final two weeks of school, and the kids are going nuts.

[risi]

I'm not re-opening this discussion about what books are allowed, but I want to suggest that we start a new thread that contains JUST the rules and allowed/disallowed books, presented as clearly and concisely as possible, to act as a permanent reference. Then in future, as the rules or books are amended, that thread could be updated (with any preceding discussion taking place elsewhere). That way, the last post in the "rules" thread would always be a clear statement of the current rules.

When I first started playing, I very carefully reviewed all the previous posts. But I started playing on the 2nd page of posts. We now have 32 pages and to review all of them takes a heck of a lot of time. If I was new, I either wouldn't join in or I would join in without knowing the rules. Given the number of times that some rules are repeated, this seems to be what folks are doing. Now, I don't object to repeating the rules and that isn't what this is about. But I would like to have some clear, current reference that I could go to when I forget. Which I do, obviously, or I wouldn't have used a quote from Dreamweaver's Dilemma. And that's an example of what I mean... we had this long discussion about expanding the allowed books, but the final results are buried on the previous page of this thread. So one either has to have a good memory or lots of patience.

Rather than suggesting we do this and letting/expecting someone else do the work, I have done a lot of review of previous posts. Below is what I think the current rules are, as we play the game here in LMBQG. But rather than posting them in the new thread, and having any resulting discussion get woven in, I'm presenting them here and inviting said discussion. With the expectation that once we're all in agreement only the final results will be posted in the new thread.

The questions that I have for others are:
- is the information correct?
- should the rules be numbered (as I've done) or bulleted like this list or simply given in paragraph form?
- should something be said about splits being at the discretion of the poster?
- I've used my most recent example of the 5-day rule, but is this clear enough or is there a better description/illustration?
- are the Sherlock instructions clear and complete and concise?
- is there anything missing?

Please be honest with your feedback. I'd like the results to be clear and accurate, even if they wind up being completely re-written. Don't worry about offending me or being too picky. Here we go:



Rules of the LMB Quote Game

1. The quote poster defines the number and specificity of the required response(s), and decides if the answer is correct.

2. A player must answer the question(s) as asked (i.e. speaker(s), spoken to, book, etc…) Page numbers are generally not asked for, just given for pride points.

3. If no one answers correctly after a week or so the quote becomes "frozen". Frozen quotes are set-aside and can thereafter be answered by anyone at anytime. A new quote is posted by whoever first decides that it's been long enough. Note: the intention of this rule is to prevent the game from going stagnant. A player who finds a cooling quote can still answer rather than freezing.

4. To prevent the game from becoming a two person contest, there is a waiting time between guessing answers. A player must wait 5 days before answering the quote immediately after theirs OR UNTIL the quote AFTER theirs is answered by someone else, whichever comes first.

Here is an illustration of Rules 3 and 4:

Dick posts a quote, Jane answers it.

Jane posts a quote. Dick can't answer Jane's quote for 5 days. But Sally answers Jane's quote the next day.

Sally posts a quote. Jane can't answer Sally's quote for 5 days. Dick can answer even though it's only been 1 day. Tom answers on day 3.

Tom posts a quote. Sally can't answer Tom's quote for 5 days. Jane can answer even though it's only been 3 days. But nobody answers, so Sally answers on day 6.

Sally posts a quote. Tom can't answer Sally's quote for 5 days.

After 10 days Dick decides Sally's quote is frozen and posts a new quote (any of the players could have made this decision, including Sally). Sally can't answer this quote for 5 days.

(and so on)

5. The poster may, optionally, offer a hint or expand the quote if s/he feels the quote is going cool. This is optional and there is no dictate on timing. Generally posters offer hints after 3-4 days but before the 5-day waiting period for the previous player has expired.

6. Players can answer from memory, by checking a scene in a book, by randomly searching within a book, or by checking a specific scene within a specific book using an online reference. Players should not use search tools to find answers that they do not know.

7. Players receive a Sherlock for their correct answers and the right to post the next quote. It is the responsibility of the quote's poster to award the Sherlock(s). To do so, go to "The Sherlock Thread". Go to the last page in that thread and quote the last post. Remove the opening and closing quote tags, and any bolding tags. Move the winner's name up to the line for their new score, and bold their name. You may have to add them to a list of other players at that score, or create a new line just for them, but each score should be on its own line. Put the winner's name in the title, replacing the name of the previous winner. Check the title to be sure it says LMBQG and not the name of one of the other games that also awards Sherlocks. Save the post and you're done! NOTE: never erase the preceeding post, always add a new one.

8. The poster may ask an optional bonus question. Bonus questions are separate from the quote, and anyone may answer, regardless of the status of the quote. Bonus questions may, or may not, be directly related to the quote being posted. Bonus questions are assumed to be worth 1/2 Sherlock, unless otherwise specified. Unanswered bonus questions do not prevent the posting of the next quote and the continuation of the game. Unanswered bonus questions are treated like frozen questions, and anyone can answer them at anytime.

9. The players of the LMBQG have chosen to limit the books that can be used as souce material.

The allowed books are:

Vorkosigan Universe books and short stories (in timeline order):
Falling Free
Shards of Honor
Barrayar
The Warrior's Apprentice
The Mountains of Morning (from Borders of Infinity)
The Vor Game
Ethan of Athos
Labyrinth (from Borders of Infinity)
Borders of Infinity (from Borders of Infinity)
Brothers in Arms
Borders of Infinity (glue pages)
Mirror Dance
Memory
Komarr
A Civil Campaign
Winterfair Gifts (from Irresistible Forces)
Diplomatic Immunity

Chalion World books:
The Curse of Chalion
Paladin of Souls
The Hallowed Hunt

The Sharing Knife books:
Beguilement
Legacy
Passage

Other books:
Spirit Ring


The disallowed books/works are:

All of the short stories in Dreamweaver's Dilemma.

Any LMB non-fiction, regardless of source.

[voralfred]

I generally agree with your rules but for a few provisos:

- on rule 3: I'd say it is the responsibility of the poster to offer hints until the quote is guessed.
In the LMBQG I don't think a single post was ever frozen since the game started.

The way it should be reformulated is, if the person who guessed just disappears from the forum, whether before posting a new quote at all (that possibility is not yet taken into account in your present Rule 3, though it did happen once, the perpetrator was Sharkbait) or after posting a hard quote and not posting hints (that falls under your present rule 3) then after some time (10 days rather than one week, maybe) anyone can react, freeze the quote and offer a new one.
But posting hint after hint is, in my opinion, the thing to do, rather than waiting for the quote to be frozen. That should be a last resort, in the case where the poster does not do what he/she/it is supposed to do. (And why would Bel Thorne not be allowed to play?)

- on rule 4 (pingpong rule) it must be made clear that the five days start from the moment the new posted is posted, not the moment the previous one is guessed.

- on rule 8
Sometimes the bonus is so strongly related to the main question that answering it is tantamount to answering the main question. In that case the pingpong rule holds. It should be a matter of common sense, for the person who posted just before, to decide whether answering the bonus before 5 days is OK or not. Or, the poster of the bonus can say it explicitly when posting the bonus. In any case, once the main question is answered, if the bonus is not answered simultaneously, the pingpong rule is lifted, and the previous poster can answer the bonus at once, without waiting for the full 5 days.

- one rule that is still unclear is, what happens to the pingpong rule in the case a quote is frozen and a new one is offered.

I move that:
- the pingpong rule applies to the player who let her/his quote go cold; (s)he can't answer the new one for five days after it is posted, as a penalty for irresponsibility.
- it does not apply to the poster who jump-started the game: this player can answer the quote just after his/her as soon as it is posted.

Why? Because of the rationale of the rule: it is to prevent two strong players from exchanging hard quotes without leaving time to others to play.
But jump-starting the game could be done, precisely, by a player that does not win so often, and uses the fact that the game got cold to offer a quote, which is rather unusual for her/him. So it seems unfair to keep her/him to answer the next quote if (s)he just happens to recognize precisely that one. This could be a very rare opportunity, and it is particularly not fair to deprive her/him of it, just because (s)he did the game a good turn by restarting it.

[risi]

"...I'd say it is the responsibility of the poster to offer hints until the quote is guessed..."

I would rather leave this optional and not required. I think that it should be left to the poster's discretion. Especially since there are some quotes that are very, very hard to expand or give hints for. However, I have re-worded the hint rule. and moved it up in the order of the rules, and added it in to the illustration. See if you think this gives it enough prominence/encouragement while leaving it optional.

"...In the LMBQG I don't think a single post was ever frozen since the game started..."
"...in the case where the poster does not do what he/she/it is supposed to do..."

I once came back from an absence and answered a quote that was on the verge of being frozen. And Suzette had offered hints, but nobody else answered. So just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't, even with hints.

"...it must be made clear that the five days start from the moment the new post is posted..."

Thanks for catching that. I've modified the rule.

"...Sometimes the bonus is so strongly related to the main question..."

You make an excellent point, and your current quote is a prime example. I have modified the bonus rule and tried to make it cover everything that it has to while still being as clear as possible. See what you think.

- one rule that is still unclear is, what happens to the pingpong rule in the case a quote is frozen and a new one is offered.

I move that:
- the pingpong rule applies to the player who let her/his quote go cold; (s)he can't answer the new one for five days after it is posted, as a penalty for irresponsibility.
- it does not apply to the poster who jump-started the game: this player can answer the quote just after his/her as soon as it is posted.

Why? Because of the rationale of the rule: it is to prevent two strong players from exchanging hard quotes without leaving time to others to play.
But jump-starting the game could be done, precisely, by a player that does not win so often, and uses the fact that the game got cold to offer a quote, which is rather unusual for her/him. So it seems unfair to keep her/him to answer the next quote if (s)he just happens to recognize precisely that one. This could be a very rare opportunity, and it is particularly not fair to deprive her/him of it, just because (s)he did the game a good turn by restarting it.

While I can appreciate your reasoning, I think that it is an unnecessary complication. Right now, it comes down to "you post, you wait". That is very simple and easy to remember. I think adding circumstances where it doesn't work that way is just confusing. Especially since the situation you describe is so unlikely. I think whenever one posts a quote--whether from winning, or freezing, or rescuing--they become "the quote poster" and the rules apply as given. But then, I like simple flowcharts rather than complex ones. What do others think?


Based on all your comments and suggestions, I have made several changes. I've split the next post rule out from the Sherlock, and added a timely manner to it. I've also added a general "rescue rule" that applies whenever any of the others snag. I thought that would be simpler than trying to put qualifiers on each of the rules that can (and has) fallen through. So here are the revised rules:



Rules of the LMB Quote Game

1. The quote poster defines the number and specificity of the required response(s), and decides if the answer is correct.

2. A player must answer the question(s) as asked (i.e. speaker(s), spoken to, book, etc…) Page numbers are generally not asked for, just given for pride points.

3. To prevent the game from becoming a two person contest (i.e. ping-pong), there is a waiting period between guessing answers. A player must wait 5 days before answering the quote immediately after theirs OR UNTIL the quote AFTER theirs is answered by someone else, whichever comes first. This 5-day waiting period begins when the new quote is posted, not when their quote was answered.

4. The quote poster may offer a hint or expand the quote if s/he feels the quote is going cool. This is optional and there is no dictate on timing, however offering hints is strongly encouraged. Generally posters offer the first hint after 3-4 days but before the 5-day waiting period for the previous player has expired. Offering hints too soon diminishes the challenge--and fun!--of the game, but not offering them when they are needed allows the game to stall.

5. If no one answers correctly after 10 days or more the quote can be "frozen". Frozen quotes are set-aside and can thereafter be answered by anyone at anytime. A new quote is posted by the first player that decides it's been long enough (after the 10-day limit is reached).

Here is an illustration of Rules 3, 4 and 5:

Dick posts a quote. Jane answers it.

Jane posts a quote. Dick can't answer Jane's quote for 5 days. Sally answers Jane's quote the next day.

Sally posts a quote. Jane can't answer Sally's quote for 5 days. Dick can answer even though it's only been 1 day. Tom answers on day 3.

Tom posts a quote. Sally can't answer Tom's quote for 5 days. Jane can answer even though it's only been 3 days. Tom posts a hint on day 4. But nobody answers, so Sally answers on day 6.

Sally posts a quote. Tom can't answer Sally's quote for 5 days. Sally posts hints on days 4, 7 and 9, but nobody answers.

Dick decides Sally's quote should be frozen after 10 days and posts a new quote (any of the players could have made this decision, including Sally). Sally can't answer this quote for 5 days. Megan answers on day 2.

Megan posts a quote. Dick can't answer Megan's quote for 5 days.

(and so on)

6. Players can answer from memory, by checking a scene in a book, by randomly searching within a book, or by checking a specific scene within a specific book using an online reference. Players should not use search tools to find answers that they do not know.

7. When a player's answer has been confirmed by the quote poster, that player wins the right to post the next quote, and they have a responsibility to post the new quote in a timely manner.

8. Players receive a Sherlock for their correct answers. It is the responsibility of the quote poster to award the Sherlock(s). To do so, go to "The Sherlock Thread". Go to the last page in that thread and quote the last post. Remove the opening and closing quote tags, and any bolding tags. Move the winner's name up to the line for their new score, and bold their name. You may have to add them to a list of other players at that score, or create a new line just for them, but each score should be on its own line. Put the winner's name in the title, replacing the name of the previous winner. Check the title to be sure it says LMBQG and not the name of one of the other games that also awards Sherlocks. Save the post and you're done! NOTE: never erase the preceeding post, always add a new one.

9. The quote poster may ask an optional bonus question. Bonus questions may--or may not--be directly related to the quote being posted. Bonus questions are separate from the quote and anyone may answer, it is not restricted to players answering the quote. However, a player who is still constrained by the 5-day waiting period should not answer a bonus when the answer would give away the quote (after the waiting period is over this does not apply). Bonus questions are assumed to be worth 1/2 Sherlock, unless otherwise specified. Unanswered bonus questions do not prevent the posting of the next quote and the continuation of the game. Unanswered bonus questions are treated like frozen questions, and anyone can answer them at anytime.

10. Anytime that the game stalls because a player is not following the rules, other players may/should step in and do what needs to be done to keep the game going. Sometimes a new player doesn't know how to post a Sherlock, sometimes a winning player never comes back to post a quote, sometimes a poster isn't available to confirm a correct answer, sometimes a player posts a quote that's already been done, etc. Players are expected to use common sense, courtesy and good judgement in applying this rule.

11. The players of the LMBQG have chosen to limit the books that can be used as souce material.

The allowed books are:

Vorkosigan Universe books and short stories (in timeline order):
Falling Free
Shards of Honor
Barrayar
The Warrior's Apprentice
The Mountains of Morning (from Borders of Infinity)
The Vor Game
Ethan of Athos
Labyrinth (from Borders of Infinity)
Borders of Infinity (from Borders of Infinity)
Brothers in Arms
Borders of Infinity (glue pages)
Mirror Dance
Memory
Komarr
A Civil Campaign
Winterfair Gifts (from Irresistible Forces)
Diplomatic Immunity

Chalion World books:
The Curse of Chalion
Paladin of Souls
The Hallowed Hunt

The Sharing Knife books:
Beguilement
Legacy
Passage

Other books:
Spirit Ring


The disallowed books/works are:

All of the short stories in Dreamweaver's Dilemma.

Any LMB non-fiction, regardless of source.

[voralfred]

Your rewriting seems OK to me.

Clearly the hints are optional, not, required, and to the discretion of the poster. I will always offer more hints than Ghost, and as you noted, even many hints won't always prevent a quote to go cold. But as a matter of philosophy, I like the writing of your present Rule 4 "...This is optional and there is no dictate on timing, however offering hints is strongly encouraged...."
I like very much your rule 10 that encompasses any possible snag.

And there is some sense in keeping the flowchart simple "You post, you wait".
To me, it goes very much against the rationale of Rule 3 (pingpong/5 days rule) to impose it on the "jump-starter", and I raised the point in analogy to other games, which I jump-started quite a few times, and guessed very rarely. I was a rather disappointed when one of my rare guesses was after I had just jump-started the game and while I pondered whether I had to wait 5 days or not, someone else answered.
I raised the point in analogy to other games, which I jump-started quite a few times, and guessed very rarely. I was a rather disappointed when one of my rare guesses was after I had just jump-started the game and while I pondered whether I had to wait 5 days or not, someone else answered.
But in this game jump-starting is a very rare event indeed (just once, not after a quote went cold, but because the winner posted no new quote at all), so there is no point in making a special rule. One can just as well keep the rules simple. If we see that it starts to happen often, and those who actually do jump-start are precisely those who win less often, maybe we can amend it then.

[voralfred]

Coming back to the question of who waits and who does not, there are more hitches with the rule "You post, you wait".
Indeed consider the case of a winner who does not post for some time and (according to your excellent rule 10) someone jumps in and posts a new one. It stands to reason that, if that player comes back just a bit later (Sharkbait disappeared for good, but that need always be the case) (s)he is the one who should wait for 5 days (if only as a penalty for stalling the game) Contrarywise, the poster whose quote that player guessed should not have to wait 5 days after the new quote is posted before answering, the game has been delayed long enough already.
Well, if these cases are very rare, it does not matter so much and we can keep the rule "You post, you wait" for simplicity.
But if the cases start to multiply, I think that one should consider changing it to one which would be fairer (sp?)

[risi]

I admit I do think of the rules purely in the context of LMBQG, but the examples you gave from other games certainly underscore your point(s).

It has just occurred to me that one possible solution is not to change the ping-pong rule or the freeze rule but to change the rescue rule. While it's true we haven't had an actual freeze, we almost did and the circumstances weren't anything that would have fallen under the rescue rule. In other words, it was just normal play but nobody got the answer. And, in that specific case, it would have been Suzette (the poster) who would have frozen and reposted, so she would still have been subject to the waiting period. Whereas the scenarios you are talking about tend to be real rescues of games that have floundered.

So maybe if we change the rescue rule to include a provision that a player that jump-starts a stalled game is, in effect, acting as an agent for the AWOL player and therefore the waiting period applies to the AWOL player and not the rescuer. Of course, that would only apply in the circumstances where it makes sense... in other words, one doesn't get an exemption just because they updated the Sherlocks for somebody else, or confirmed an answer, or such.

Hmmm. The more I think about this, the more I think this might be the right approach. It still keeps the basic rules as simple as possible and puts the exception in with the exception-justifying action. The only difficulty I see is differentiating between freezes and rescues. I guess the big difference, the way I see it, is whether the quote has gone unanswered versus whether the game has gone stagnant.

What do you think?

[voralfred]

Yes, excellent approach.
In fact the difference between a stalled, stagnat game and a quote that is just too hard is that the poster is AWOL in the first case while (s)he is present in the second. In the latter case, instead of taking the initiative of freezing, a player coud just suggest the poster that the quote is too hard and please put another one. To which the poster could either oblige, or say something like "OK, just one more very strong hint but if nooone finds within 2-3 dys, I'll put another quote", and indeed offers another if the last hint does not work within that specified (short) time. Then this counts as a single turn, and the pingpong rule applies normally. On the other hand if the poster has gone AWOL, either before posting at all, or after posting but neglecting to put any hint or to react to suggestions that the quote is too hard, than the player that rescues the game counts as agent of the AWOL player, and the pingpong rule applies to the AWOL player but not the agent. Just updating Sherlocks, or confirming a correct answer if the poster does not, does not count, of course, only posting a rescue quote does, because this is what would put the rescuing poster under the yoke of the pingpong rule unless we introduce this "agent" notion.

[risi]

OK, I've put that modification to Rule 10 in place. I'm surprised no one else has had anything to say. I don't know if that represents agreement or vacations. I think I will leave this here for at least a week, to see if anyone else has comments. If there isn't anything else, then I'll move it to the new thread. This is what we have at this point:




Rules of the LMB Quote Game

1. The quote poster defines the number and specificity of the required response(s), and decides if the answer is correct.

2. A player must answer the question(s) as asked (i.e. speaker(s), spoken to, book, etc…) Page numbers are generally not asked for, just given for pride points.

3. To prevent the game from becoming a two person contest (i.e. ping-pong), there is a waiting period between guessing answers. A player must wait 5 days before answering the quote immediately after theirs OR UNTIL the quote AFTER theirs is answered by someone else, whichever comes first. This 5-day waiting period begins when the new quote is posted, not when their quote was answered.

4. The quote poster may offer a hint or expand the quote if s/he feels the quote is going cool. This is optional and there is no dictate on timing, however offering hints is strongly encouraged. Generally posters offer the first hint after 3-4 days but before the 5-day waiting period for the previous player has expired. Offering hints too soon diminishes the challenge--and fun!--of the game, but not offering them when they are needed allows the game to stall.

5. If no one answers correctly after 10 days or more the quote can be "frozen". Frozen quotes are set-aside and can thereafter be answered by anyone at anytime. A new quote is posted by the first player that decides it's been long enough (after the 10-day limit is reached).

Here is an illustration of Rules 3, 4 and 5:

Dick posts a quote. Jane answers it.

Jane posts a quote. Dick can't answer Jane's quote for 5 days. Sally answers Jane's quote the next day.

Sally posts a quote. Jane can't answer Sally's quote for 5 days. Dick can answer even though it's only been 1 day. Tom answers on day 3.

Tom posts a quote. Sally can't answer Tom's quote for 5 days. Jane can answer even though it's only been 3 days. Tom posts a hint on day 4. But nobody answers, so Sally answers on day 6.

Sally posts a quote. Tom can't answer Sally's quote for 5 days. Sally posts hints on days 4, 7 and 9, but nobody answers.

Dick decides Sally's quote should be frozen after 10 days and posts a new quote (any of the players could have made this decision, including Sally). Sally can't answer this quote for 5 days. Megan answers on day 2.

Megan posts a quote. Dick can't answer Megan's quote for 5 days.

(and so on)

6. Players can answer from memory, by checking a scene in a book, by randomly searching within a book, or by checking a specific scene within a specific book using an online reference. Players should not use search tools to find answers that they do not know.

7. When a player's answer has been confirmed by the quote poster, that player wins the right to post the next quote, and they have a responsibility to post the new quote in a timely manner.

8. Players receive a Sherlock for their correct answers. It is the responsibility of the quote poster to award the Sherlock(s). To do so, go to "The Sherlock Thread". Go to the last page in that thread and quote the last post. Remove the opening and closing quote tags, and any bolding tags. Move the winner's name up to the line for their new score, and bold their name. You may have to add them to a list of other players at that score, or create a new line just for them, but each score should be on its own line. Put the winner's name in the title, replacing the name of the previous winner. Check the title to be sure it says LMBQG and not the name of one of the other games that also awards Sherlocks. Save the post and you're done! NOTE: never erase the preceeding post, always add a new one.

9. The quote poster may ask an optional bonus question. Bonus questions may--or may not--be directly related to the quote being posted. Bonus questions are separate from the quote and anyone may answer, it is not restricted to players answering the quote. However, a player who is still constrained by the 5-day waiting period should not answer a bonus when the answer would give away the quote (after the waiting period is over this does not apply). Bonus questions are assumed to be worth 1/2 Sherlock, unless otherwise specified. Unanswered bonus questions do not prevent the posting of the next quote and the continuation of the game. Unanswered bonus questions are treated like frozen questions, and anyone can answer them at anytime.

10. Anytime that the game stalls because a player is not following the rules, other players may/should step in and do what needs to be done to keep the game going. Sometimes a new player doesn't know how to post a Sherlock, sometimes a winning player never comes back to post a quote, sometimes a poster isn't available to confirm a correct answer, sometimes a player posts a quote that's already been done, etc. Players are expected to use common sense, courtesy and good judgement in applying this rule. When a player posts a quote for an absent player they are acting as an agent; any waiting periods apply to the absent player not the agent.

11. The players of the LMBQG have chosen to limit the books that can be used as souce material.

The allowed books are:

Vorkosigan Universe books and short stories (in timeline order):
Falling Free
Shards of Honor
Barrayar
The Warrior's Apprentice
The Mountains of Morning (from Borders of Infinity)
The Vor Game
Ethan of Athos
Labyrinth (from Borders of Infinity)
Borders of Infinity (from Borders of Infinity)
Brothers in Arms
Borders of Infinity (glue pages)
Mirror Dance
Memory
Komarr
A Civil Campaign
Winterfair Gifts (from Irresistible Forces)
Diplomatic Immunity

Chalion World books:
The Curse of Chalion
Paladin of Souls
The Hallowed Hunt

The Sharing Knife books:
Beguilement
Legacy
Passage

Other books:
Spirit Ring


The disallowed books/works are:

All of the short stories in Dreamweaver's Dilemma.

Any LMB non-fiction, regardless of source.

[voralfred]

OK, (....)

Here is an illustration of Rules 3, 4 and 5:

(...)

Sally posts a quote. Tom can't answer Sally's quote for 5 days. Sally posts hints on days 4, 7 and 9, but nobody answers.

Dick decides Sally's quote should be frozen after 10 days and posts a new quote (any of the players could have made this decision, including Sally). Sally can't answer this quote for 5 days. (...)

Well, since Sally has been present, posting hints 3 times, I think it is not very couteous of Dick to freeze her post. What I'd say is, Dick should suggest to Sally that her hints do no good and it would be a good idea to post a new one. Only if Sally, either does not react, or keeps insisting for posting hint after hint, with no result, should he freeze it against her will. On the other hand, had Sally not posted any hint for ten full days, Dick's action is more justified. (Though 10 days is a bit short; two weeks maybe - on the other hand, one week, counting from the confirmation of the correctness of the answer, is plenty of time in the total absence of any post at all) But from your OK at the top of your post, I thought we'd agree that if Sally really exaggerates and Dick finally has to freeze her post, then as her agent Dick can answer Megan's quote, but Sally can answer neither Dick's nor Megan's.

[SPetty]

OK, I've put that modification to Rule 10 in place. I'm surprised no one else has had anything to say. I don't know if that represents agreement or vacations.

Actually, in my case, it's the "verbosity exceeded brain storage ability" style of vacation. In other words, I tried to read it, and didn't get all the way through before either I was too tired (reading late at night) or got interrupted by children (virtually any other time of the day), and decided to leave it in your capable hands till my brain storage clears out a little (a week might do it). From what I read, it sounds ok to me, but I may have missed some details along the way. I should have more brain capacity either Monday, or a week from Monday, depending on how the situation gels.

[risi]

Well, since Sally has been present, posting hints 3 times, I think it is not very couteous of Dick to freeze her post. What I'd say is, Dick should suggest to Sally that her hints do no good and it would be a good idea to post a new one. Only if Sally, either does not react, or keeps insisting for posting hint after hint, with no result, should he freeze it against her will. On the other hand, had Sally not posted any hint for ten full days, Dick's action is more justified. (Though 10 days is a bit short; two weeks maybe - on the other hand, one week, counting from the confirmation of the correctness of the answer, is plenty of time in the total absence of any post at all) But from your OK at the top of your post, I thought we'd agree that if Sally really exaggerates and Dick finally has to freeze her post, then as her agent Dick can answer Megan's quote, but Sally can answer neither Dick's nor Megan's.

Well, I thought we'd agreed that the rescue rule applied for when the game had stalled out and the poster was absent, in which case the poster is an agent. In the illustration, the game hasn't stalled and the poster is present, so it's just a normal freeze. And the freeze rule says that, "A new quote is posted by the first player that decides it's been long enough (after the 10-day limit is reached)". It may be discourteous of Dick, or maybe Sally is really being obnoxious. I was mainly trying to illustrate the "anyone can react" part, which from what I've read, seems to be the way the freeze rule is used.

The freeze rule had originally said "a week or so" which is the way it was given in the rules on page 1. But you said 10 days, so I changed it to 10 days. Now you would like to impose 2 different time frames for 2 different sets of circumstances... I think that's just too confusing.

And as far as the whole scenario you described of how a player could post that it's too hard, and ask for a new quote and so on... I agree that that is fine example of how social manners should work. I did not think--nor did I think that you meant--that any of that should be incorporated as actual rules. The document is already too cumbersome--if it goes into any finer detail than it has, it'll be no fun being here.

I think what it comes down to is we should have a set of rules that cover most of the common circumstances, and rely on people's common sense and good manners, and then deal with the few difficult cases when/if they arise. A review of the way things have been going here lately shows plainly enough that courtesy and common sense are not lacking.

All I'm trying to do is document the rules as they exist so they can be kept all together as a common, easily-located reference... I don't want to re-write them and I certainly don't want to create a multi-page document covering every possible circumstance that might ever arise.

[voralfred]

In fact, the rule I like best is your rule 10.
In itself, it essentially covers all the difficult cases.
Courtesy, as well as good judgment, suggests that one reacts differently to a poster who posts a hard quote and disappears for 10 days without any hint, and to someone who tries hard to help by adding hints. Courtesy would be to first suggest to the latter poster to post a new quote, or to freeze her/himself the quote and allow others to post a new one, before freezing the quote oneself. While in the former case, after 10 days or so without any hint at all, freezing is not discourteous, but an action suggested by common sense (who can guess when the poster will come back.

Another consequence of rule 10 is, if a correct answer is posted but the poster does not confirm for some time, any player can come in and confirm, so the person who guessed can go on with the game. Similarly, I'm sorry that recently I apparently did not follow our usual etiquette and posted without Spetty's public OK, but in fact she had already told me by PM that my guess was right when I PMed it to her, at a time when I did not want to post a new quote lest it was not guessed before I left. But then noone guessed SPetty's quote, and I thought I'd put an easy one so it would be found before I left. And I did not want to lose any more time.
So that was all trying to apply common sense without being discourteous to Spetty, though it might have appeared that I was.

So let rule 10 rule!

[voralfred]

This is a "living" game, so we could change the list of allowable books if we feel like it. There are so few of us, I don't think one should start a new poll, just ask people for opinions.


What we could do is

- add "Horizon", now, enough time has passed since publication
- decide to allow "Dreamwaever's Dilemma" (the novella) and the short stories published in the collection by this name (one quote in "Barter" has already been found, in fact)

- remove "Spirit Ring"

... or any other modification anyone wants to introduce (which?)



My vote is

- add "Horizon" now, or if not now, soon, that is if we vote against it now, ask again in about 6 months from now
- not allow the stories from "Dreamwever's Dilemma" (though I personnally just reread the entrie collection, I think it is not fair, too few people have it)
- remove "Spirit Ring"

Since these are rather independent question, I did not make a poll, we should just write our opinion in a post and then we can count the votes "by hand"


The reason changes should be considered are, on the one hand, time goes by so books that were "too recent" (like "Horizon") now become "old enough", and also, some players disappear, new ones arrive, and one should take their opinion into account, too. So one should reevaluate once in a while. You don't need to have actually won to be allowed to vote, just showing interest is enough, so of course you are allowed to vote, Francis. And also you, gollum, if you are still around...


Can an admin make this a "sticky", please?

[E Pericoloso Sporgersi]

I feel that, despite my actual age, I'm too junior a member to voice my opinion.
(That's assuming I *have* an opinion. )

[Caroline Tredez]

I agree with voralfred to at least allow "Horizon", for the rest I am unsure. I haven't re-read "Dreamweaver's Dilemma" for a long time (though I'm probably going to, very soon), and I've never read Spirit Ring in english (plan to buy it, with the rest of the Vorkosigan Novels I haven't in VO - but it's not up to the standard of her later work), so for now I would be unable to answer any quote from them.

[JKCade]

My two Euro's worth ( since the dollar is going down the toilet faster than I can keep up with)

- add "Horizon"
- allow "Dreamwaever's Dilemma"
-allow "Spirit Ring" to remain

James

[voralfred]

I feel that, despite my actual age, I'm too junior a member to voice my opinion.
(That's assuming I *have* an opinion. )

No, no, do give your opinion.
Anyone who is interested is entitled to vote. Previous regulars, even if they haven't played for a while, are welcome to express themselves (risi, Reede Kullervo, Ragua...), and even Sharkbait who hasn't played for ages, if you read this, you can vote, gollum too, and certainly you, Francis.

Caroline, should your post be interpreted you think the stories in _DD_ should stay out, and _Spirit Ring_ should go out, or do you abstain?

The only clear point is, "Horizon" will be in (3-0), unless we have a barrage of new votes against it

[Caroline Tredez]

I am unsure. All in all, I'm rather like James, I think *all* work of fiction by our dear Lois should be allowed, but for now I can't really participate for DD or SR. That's my problem, I just have to read those again I've just commanded my missing books, given that the dollar is sinking (as James reminded us ) I can afford them since I pay in euro... So by the end of the month, it should be all right for me. I think there are enough players now to allow for all books, without too great a risk for a quote to grow cold.

[SPetty]

I think it should all be in (Horizon, Dreamweaver's Dilemma, and Spirit Ring). Of course, I voted for that the first time (well, except Horizon, which wasn't published then).

With Dreamweaver's Dilemma, it's partially short stories, and partially interview/non-fiction. Would we be adding the sum of it, or just the short stories?

Since there is a rule for quotes going cold, it doesn't really bother me if some of the quotes are more obscure. It's somewhat hard for me to participate for quotes from HH, Beguilement, and Legacy, as I don't own copies of those yet, but I don't expect to catch up to voralfred in sherlocks any time soon, anyway.

[E Pericoloso Sporgersi]

... I don't expect to catch up to voralfred in sherlocks any time soon, anyway.

You experienced LMB readers go ahead. If once in a while I can win a lowly Baker Street Irregular or a Poirot I'll be happy.

BTW. When will there be a Gregor's Auditor Medal or a Negri & Ilyan Commendation?

[Caroline Tredez]

Good point, SPetty : I think the non-fiction should stay off-limits. Not the same feeling, not the same meaning... If Dreamweaver's Dilemma is allowed, I'd really like to see quotes only from the stories.