Book 1 - Teot's War

[Asseri]

Thank you, I do appreciate the concern! I'm on Pacific Time, and I think the boards are on EST? I know I've been surprised sometimes. (Curt might be able to explain the posting times, as they don't match mine here at home at all.) Apparently my natural sleep cycle is sitting up with the graveyard shift, in spite of being jerked round to standard office hours. I don't think I'd call it a sleep disorder, exactly, but I do have a tendency to take awhile to settle in to working on something, then I get so involved in things, I keep going until I start falling asleep in the chair. (This can be a bit rough next day at work after lunch, that's for sure). Sort of a too-long attention span, instead of one that's too short, if that makes sense.
And gee, I don't know why thinking about elain's comments about submission getting Naga all hot and bothered might keep me up late...

that cause the voices in your head will not let you rest! .

I think what we are all remarking on is the spirit of service and the heart of commitment. It is the same drive that makes military more successful for some then others. For the most part (i feel) we have bred that out of humanity in 1st world countries .

To " serve" is a talent and to not give up on that instinct is a sence of commitment. Not everybody can bend and survive with what ever the rules are. Very few can be that aware of the need to be in that place and find joy with those you serve.

( lol ! Can you tell i'm in low level managment. I have also served as a lady-in -waiting for a year whole heartedly in the SCA . A very enligtening experience. Fictional court and modern ones are mostly like you think . )

Naga understands and he accepts after a fashion "why" as he is and where he is . maybe not like a sage but as a capable and loving man . He also knows that he is a mirror of the Court around him . His gaze make others see their souls (and crawl under the rocks they hide under) . he is the Deu et Machina after a fashion .

Auntie is a fierce woman and not to be trifled with . She knows to use the forces around her and is willing to step up and do it. But more importantly she know when to hold off and wait to strike later. Perhaps that is more a womens craft.

[MOD NOTE - clong fixed quote tag]

[wolfspirit]

Thank you, I do appreciate the concern! I'm on Pacific Time, and I think the boards are on EST? I know I've been surprised sometimes. (Curt might be able to explain the posting times, as they don't match mine here at home at all.)

You should go into your profile and change it to your local time. It gets set on Eastern because a number of us (kiltannen, Brad, myself and acouple of tohers) are eastern, and since kilt runs the forum, he obviously makes it most convient to him

[hgladney]

thanks, wolfspirit, will do that! I'd just left it on GMT time.

And asseri, just keep talkin'--you always say such great things. I love the description of Great Aunt Agtunki as that deadly poised, "kowing when to wait" sort of person. Aaah boy, are you right there--and *everybody* who has any sense at court knows it!

PS--turns out we're somewhere between 5 and 5 1/2 hours + GMT, Greenwich Mean Time. Odd, but close enough! Will need to recheck when Daylight Savings changes hit us, too.

[Asseri]

thanks, wolfspirit, will do that! I'd just left it on GMT time.

And asseri, just keep talkin'--you always say such great things. I love the description of Great Aunt Agtunki as that deadly poised, "kowing when to wait" sort of person. Aaah boy, are you right there--and *everybody* who has any sense at court knows it!

PS--turns out we're somewhere between 5 and 5 1/2 hours + GMT, Greenwich Mean Time. Odd, but close enough! Will need to recheck when Daylight Savings changes hit us, too.

Wait! your giving me permission to babble... ohh lo woman you do so endow me ! ahh to live up to the gift is a bit startling.

I'm in the middle of Pennsic Panic. Pennsic is one of the largest recreationist (500 CE to 1600 CE roughly ) SCA events in the world. Primitive Camping with 15,000 of your closest friends. and you have to wear funny clothing the whole time. I volenteered to cook 2 meals a day for my camp so they are well taken care of. Open fire and camp stove cooking no less

HMm yeah Somebody tell me about Service being a personality trait again ?

[hgladney]

I understand, from listening to Ren Faire vets out here, that cooking huge pans of bacon, repeatedly, from oh-dark-thirty am until noon, day after day, at the dire risk of burns from spattering hot fat, while practically sitting in the fire to get close enough to do it, is one of the more vicious tests of the service personality.
Possibly along with peeling that many potatoes.
Asking why they bothered peeling them, wasn't washing them enough of a chore, is just taking your life in your hands.
One doesn't repeat that question!
One also doesn't ask why bother.
After all, 1500 of your closest friends, all in funny clothes, are even *worse* at cooking over open flames than you are, and *they're* far more likely to set the whole place up in smoke.
So, please cook safe, and drive safe.
And good luck on the recovering from "vacation"!

[hgladney]

Just wanted to go back and comment again how much I liked the whole comment by cygnet, earlier in the thread. Feel lke I didn't take the time to go into it fully while I was busy workin on the other aspect fo the thread, but I wanted to folow up on this. And no, I haven't forgotten that I wanted to also talk about the women's culture in Tan, I think over on the world-building thread.

Cygnet said, in part:
At the time, Naga is an angsty, trust-no-one, desert-prince-in-exile. He's also a dramatic Harper with a flair for timing. Of course he did things in the most theatrical fashion possible!

To which I gotta say, oh boy, are you right about that one. Even when it's not perhaps most discreet and least troublesome and wisest way to handle it! I guess we gotta admit he's still young there, and inclined to be a leetle bit showy, compared to what his trainer Reti might have preferred. And certainly more showy than Pitar might have preferred! But then, Pitar isn't dealing with the problems of *proving* himself to every strange new batch of people they visit, as Naga is. The other guards and soldiers and just the nobles with big ideas need to see him being effective at stomping things. I just didn't do it onstage right there. (I think I was getting concerned that the reader might find it tiresome, yet another fight sequence, one-two-three-stomp, one-two-three-stooomp, and so on, ad nauseum.)

Cygnet went on:
This is only one of the many times you used this technique of "leaving the reader in the dark" for very short periods of time, or giving away just enough that the reader is drawn in but has no way of predicting what's happened/going to happen until later. This technique also makes for a higher rereadability factor. That "surprise!" is expertly woven into Teot's War, and less prevelent in the sequel.

I like the tantilizing "what's he doing and why?", and you give enough implications that keep me looking for how I should fill in the rest. It's less fun having things spelled out blow-by-blow. Knowing what to leave out is, I feel, underemphasized in modern sci-fi/fantasy, although a few notable authors have used it well**.
With footnotes!! References!
I think I'm in luurve, folks.
(No, I didn't use to have a thing for librarians, before I discovered the wide world of the reference stacks, and the Dewey Decimal System. Why, how I lived all those years without the help of properly trained librarians, I'll never know. I just didn't understand what I was missing as a writer until I started reading Terry Practchettt's satire of footnotes--)
Ahem.
*That* review is over on the Pratchett forum, if you're interested.
And yes, various online links are pretty useful too. I think I posted most of the ones I have for writing purposes over in my world-building thread.
But anyway, Cygnet, I appreciate that.
Besides that, this is a really nice description. And yes, I do want to make more use of this method, if only to get things humping along at --all right, jogging along, jogging, I meant trotting or jogging or whatever--at a slightly faster clip.
But I also don't want to leave anybody too far behind in the dust, either! I look at that problem in "Did you communicate to the reader?" issue as being similar to maintaining the right balance of action to dialogue to description. For instance, you can lose people by using a precise but unsual word they don't know. And how long should you go on with those little asides of descriptive bits that can build up a setting or character or give back story or plug in some history? Is a paragraph too long? Is one obsolete but correct word worth a thousand words of explanation?

Cygnet continued:
The last time I was in a fistfight, I clearly remember small details - the surprise/shock in his eyes when I ended the fight, and calmly sitting down to resume eating my sandwich and reading my book the moment it became clear he wasn't able to immediately hit back (I didn't feel bad about it - he was a year older and outweighed me). I don't remember how many punches he or I threw, or how I ducked. Naga's attention to inconsequential details during times of stress is what helps make those scenes come alive so well.

Reading the book, eating the sandwich?? Now that's just stylish.

My fairly limited experience of urgent events (only occasionally emergencies) is that odd things jump out into extreme focus, and other things disappear to the point you don't even remember them later on. Pain is equally odd. People vary, but I found I have about a fairly typical twenty-minute shock window where you an extract splinters and sew up minor rips without much painkiller. But you can also bruise yourself terribly during this period with no idea later on where they came from. And this is in a relatively peaceful environment; in a wartime one, this sort of brutal insulation might well last much longer.

This is where I pick up my knowledge of that stuttery feeling, the oddly distorted proportions of things, and the narrowing of vision. Those fisheye camera angles they love to use in action series aren't quite the same thing as the fading-inward and narrowing effect on your eyesight during shock or fear or excess intoxicants, but it's a good enough reference to it.

It's also where I notice a certain stripped-down harshness of action and speech, just when it's too easy to upset people who are having a hard time hanging on to fragile nerves as it is. I much prefer seeing people in emergency rooms get treated with the low-key, no-rush approach that means everything will get caught and dealt with, nothing gets overlooked, nothing will get done badly, in haste. Some of the senior emergency physicians I've seen have an incredibly soft, humane, and at the same time totally crisp, manner. Incredibly zen. I'd love to be able to convey that, too.

I should add that shock-window may be a lifesaver in primitive circumstances, but it comes at cost. Of course you pay for that kind of adrenaline punchout later, and especially if it's a repetitious problem. One of the pipers you pay is called post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, these days. Abused children can have it, for instance.

To be honest, I don't know nearly as much about PTSD as my characters think I do. (Yes, I know that sounds weird.)
I will edit to add more information about it later, if I have permission to crosspost.

[hgladney]

I've posted the links to political comments and the results of Iraq war PTSD over here, given the close association I feel it has with some posts about violence over there.
viewtopic.php?p=1759643#1759643

[Cygnet]

cygnet, you said:
I don't reread too many books; Teot's War was one of the first, and I reread it within a two-day period, which was unheard of for me then.
Thank you. That is indeed very flattering praise. I was wondering what changed. Do you reread more often now? Is it a matter of experience, finding more writers you like enough to reread?

I do tend to reread books more often now. I think, earlier, I just picked up a lot per read, and rarely felt there was any more to be had from the book. The only times I'd reread would be to write a critical analysis, and I don't really think of that as rereading, per se. I think now I choose books that I either know are brain candy and that I won't reread, or choose more multilayered books that I will reread. Obviously, you know into which catagory your two novels fall!

Cygnet went on:
This is only one of the many times you used this technique of "leaving the reader in the dark" for very short periods of time...

...I do want to make more use of this method, if only to get things humping along at --all right, jogging along, jogging, I meant trotting or jogging or whatever--at a slightly faster clip.
But I also don't want to leave anybody too far behind in the dust, either! I look at that problem in "Did you communicate to the reader?" issue as being similar to maintaining the right balance of action to dialogue to description. For instance, you can lose people by using a precise but unsual word they don't know. And how long should you go on with those little asides of descriptive bits that can build up a setting or character or give back story or plug in some history? Is a paragraph too long? Is one obsolete but correct word worth a thousand words of explanation?

All right, this'll be my intellectual elistist coming out.

When I see a word I don't know and can't figure out from context or otherwise, I go look it up. So, given my bias, I'd want to see the more precise word because it accurately conveys what you mean, and I probably already know the word. But that's me

I don't remember feeling left behind the first time I read Teot's War. I do remember the sudden realization that you'd pretty much skipped the fight scene. It struck me as audacious and daring, but not entirely unexpected. I also remember feeling delighted and amused because of the rarity.

Saleswise, I'm probably not the kind of person you should write for, though.

Cygnet continued:
The last time I was in a fistfight, I clearly remember small details...
Reading the book, eating the sandwich?? Now that's just stylish.

*chuckles* Strategic, actually. Since it was in front of the whole class, it meant the other kids (mostly) didn't pick on me for the rest of that year. Herd mentality and all that

My fairly limited experience of urgent events (only occasionally emergencies) is that odd things jump out into extreme focus, and other things disappear to the point you don't even remember them later on... in a wartime one, this sort of brutal insulation might well last much longer... This is where I pick up my knowledge of that stuttery feeling, the oddly distorted proportions of things, and the narrowing of vision... It's also where I notice a certain stripped-down harshness of action and speech

Yup, that's the physical symptoms. The biochem aspects of stress and prolonged or repetetive stresses are pretty interesting, but kind of gruesome in the long-term. Predicably, the best things for defusing the effects of prolonged stressers are cardio and sparring (fight or flight anyone?). Unfortunetly, with repetetive stressors, the damage become cumulative, even if the person runs and spars; with a sudden and intense stressor, the person often gets emotional and mental flashbacks, with or without triggers, depending on the person and stressor. At least, that's the simple version of it!

To be honest, I don't know nearly as much about PTSD as my characters think I do. (Yes, I know that sounds weird.)
I will edit to add more information about it later, if I have permission to crosspost.

I have no problem with your crossposting any of my words

[hgladney]

I do tend to reread books more often now. I think, earlier, I just picked up a lot per read, and rarely felt there was any more to be had from the book. The only times I'd reread would be to write a critical analysis, and I don't really think of that as rereading, per se. I think now I choose books that I either know are brain candy and that I won't reread, or choose more multilayered books that I will reread. Obviously, you know into which catagory your two novels fall!

Thanks!! Shortcut=thousand tiresome punches, right?
This is interesting. And yes, I do what I call popcorn reading too, books you gobble down once and hand on to others. Most recently, Janet Evanovich's Ten Big Ones. (And yes, a fan directed me to her very silly Stephanie Plum series with the statement, "Ranger=yum." Must say, she's right, he's a fun character. And no, I wouldn't want to test him against my guys nine falls out of ten. Neither her guys nor mine fight fair. At. All. And Ranger has all kinds of tech toys, on top of it. ) I've argued myself into not feeling *too* much guilt about "wasting time" at these, since they're obviously doing things that work (page-turning??) and it's useful to acquire more tools, to have at hand when you *want* to use them. Like anything else, I just can't overdo, or it all starts sounding like popcorn dialogue in my head!

For instance, you can lose people by using a precise but unsual word they don't know. And how long should you go on with those little asides of descriptive bits that can build up a setting or character or give back story or plug in some history? Is a paragraph too long? Is one obsolete but correct word worth a thousand words of explanation?

All right, this'll be my intellectual elistist coming out.

When I see a word I don't know and can't figure out from context or otherwise, I go look it up. So, given my bias, I'd want to see the more precise word because it accurately conveys what you mean, and I probably already know the word. But that's me

Yes. I love picking up new and archaic words, mainly because they often speak to a whole branch of knowledge that's become less common than it used to be. I know the *sound* of technical terms, done right, soothes a reader into trusting that authorial voice knows what it's doing.
But that's not as simple as it sounds, either. Opinions are like mouths (or other body parts), everybody has one...
Beekeeping, or cheesemaking, or masonry, or roofing, or beer brewing, and so on--all the trades have their own slang, and sometimes regional slang, the same as rap or blues or jazz. Sometimes an expert can diagnose who a writer consulted just from the words used! So it's not just listening to get it right, and asking questions, it's also *who* you asked. Sometimes it turns out you signed onto some big flame war*you didn't even know existed*, just because your expert declared themselves loudly on one side. This is where you get into asking general questions first, trying to understand recent controversis, "hey, who am I gonna tick off if you cite you?"

I don't remember feeling left behind the first time I read Teot's War.

Thank you. I have had some readers tell me it was a struggle for them. Yes, folks who didn't have very good jobs, or very good reading skills, but they were trying really hard. This is a serious concern if you're thinking of sf readers in terms of recent graduation from YA (young adult) books, trying not write yourself out of the mainstream. On the other hand, if there's no other way to convey properly, what are you gonna do? Try to find a simpler way of conveying sophisticated ideas. A lot of great children's books accomplish amazingly subtle ideas with such simple language.

I do remember the sudden realization that you'd pretty much skipped the fight scene. It struck me as audacious and daring, but not entirely unexpected. I also remember feeling delighted and amused because of the rarity.

Thanks!!

Saleswise, I'm probably not the kind of person you should write for, though.

Ummm, scratching head, well, I don't know if I have a lot of choice on that one! I can try to simplify my choice of words, make sure I'm not doing crochet-loops with the prose structure coming back around to the same idea five times, make sure I've clarified who's talking when, and who's kicking the *** out of whom, and I can try to skip some of the higher-flown untrained sociology theorizing that gets too abstract for most folks.
This caution comes from my awareness that there's no worse writing than a hard science engineer trying to write about social science topics without checking out other people's reseach first. Without the slightest inclination to do their homework and learn what others have already found out, the hard way, by dong real field studies. You can add to that, illogical monetary theory. Or uninformed wild notions about taxes, centralized authority, and social controls. Arrrrgh.

The last time I was in a fistfight, I clearly remember small details...

Reading the book, eating the sandwich?? Now that's just stylish.

*chuckles* Strategic, actually. Since it was in front of the whole class, it meant the other kids (mostly) didn't pick on me for the rest of that year. Herd mentality and all that

Yep, you knew exactly what you were doing. How much of "style" is the self-confidence of knowing exactly how to go after something? In some, it's everything--the slash of the sumi brush, doing just one thing, perfectly.

My fairly limited experience of urgent events (only occasionally emergencies) is that odd things jump out into extreme focus, and other things disappear to the point you don't even remember them later on... in a wartime one, this sort of brutal insulation might well last much longer... This is where I pick up my knowledge of that stuttery feeling, the oddly distorted proportions of things, and the narrowing of vision... It's also where I notice a certain stripped-down harshness of action and speech

Yup, that's the physical symptoms. The biochem aspects of stress and prolonged or repetetive stresses are pretty interesting, but kind of gruesome in the long-term. Predicably, the best things for defusing the effects of prolonged stressers are cardio and sparring (fight or flight anyone?).

Hence the need to train, with somebody like Naga. By himself, for hours, if nobody else is willing to get entertainingly trounced & taught all kinds of things that are good for them.

Unfortunetly, with repetetive stressors, the damage become cumulative, even if the person runs and spars; with a sudden and intense stressor, the person often gets emotional and mental flashbacks, with or without triggers, depending on the person and stressor. At least, that's the simple version of it!

Makes me a little self-conscious about going into too much detail, but I was writing about this before it had an acronym in polite society. And yeah, I think I've been talking about a fairly moderate case, Naga's able to handle real life fairly well for somebody who has flashbacks.

Posted a link to a BBC article, over on the thread where I started talking about PTSD. There, they briefly mentioned attention deficit disorder (ADD or ADHD) as another possible symptom. Makes sense, but I hadn't heard that one before.

To be honest, I don't know nearly as much about PTSD as my characters think I do. (Yes, I know that sounds weird.)
I will edit to add more information about it later, if I have permission to crosspost.

I have no problem with your crossposting any of my words

Thanks!

[htomatogal]

I am one of those folks who found and read Teot’s War when it was first released. Although my memory is not the greatest, I’m almost certain what caused me to buy the book was the back-cover blurb, which read, in part: “He came from the wastelands smoldering with hate, no room in his heart for anything else. Until he met the gaze of Liege Lord of Tan, who claimed his Oath, his loyalty, and more.â€

[hgladney]

Welcome to the forum, Laurel, it's so good to hear from you! I always find it cheers me up to hear from folks who've been reading the books.
I'm so glad you shared your thoughts, too, because (like teaching, perhaps) explaining sometimes helps me think ou things more clearly.

I'm also sorry to disappoint you, along with other folks, all these years when we could <i>all</i> have used having another Teot book out there on the shelves.

The good news is that I have been working the third one for quite some time, as I've talked about on other threads, and in content from some of my older websites.

I recently sent out the first 17 chapters to a number of "beta-reader" folks, some of them here on the forum, to request feedback on the rough shape of the opening 1/4 of it, or so. Yeah, it's looking <i>big.</i> From their comments, I've rearranged some character introductions a bit, and I'm starting to pull together a rewrite that's looking a little tighter and stronger and more interesting. It also brought up some insights on later events, of which I mean to make proper use.

Oh well, yes, you <i>knew</i> I was a big tease anyway, right?

I was very surprised when I learned that Naga was only 19 when he first encountered Tanman. I also assumed initially that Caladrunan was probably on the order of mid-30s. Additional reflection had me revise that estimate to late 20s, early 30s, because of the realization that in a feudal society people mature much more quickly than we in the 21st century. But I would like to know how old you conceive Drin to be.

I was fairly surprised too!
I should explain that, when I visualize a scene, I don't get it as a complete snapshot. It's more like a fuzzy image whose boundaries can be pushed a bit in this or that direction, and if it gives more in that direction, then I try to follow it up. But that's not the complete story, it's usually just one or two scenes as in a play.

Later another scene may pop up in the theater of my head, which bears no obvious relation to the first one, and it may take me some time to sort out that's where it belongs. Then I end up with stacks of things that may or may not fit together.

I got confused sometimes at first, when I first started assembling bits of the first book, but these days I'm pretty clear when something is not part of the same story.

Occasionally, reading back through these bits trying to work out if they belong together, I'll get a flash here and there of intervening bits.

My job over here in the Real World is sorting out, by the tag-ends hanging out here and there, what little squiggly bit locks into the next puzzle bit, and how to make the transitions work, and trust that the subconsicous knows what it's doing, and probably in more interesting ways than the conscious does.

So, I get some daydream image in my head--most of the major scenes in both books come from these--and like a reporter with a malfunctioning tape recorder, I'm running after the characters scribbling madly.

The people in there who know me a bit may casually toss off some remark.

You know, the kind where <i>I'm</i> left going, "Whaaat? Bu-bu-bu-but that's not what you said last chapter--"

Then, sometimes, I get that snotty reply, "That was <i>last</i> chapter."
Sigh.

If you're wondering if this can lead to continuity issues, that'd be a big fat <i>YES.</i>

Umm, Therin's proper age is a bit...problematic, you see.

So yes, you've got those first two ages right.

I think both men are actually much younger than current society would read their attitude and behavior to suggest. They would appear older to our eyes, too, given the kind of outdoor weather-beating their skin has been exposed to.

They might still revert sometimes to what we'd call their "real" age.

I've read some amusing remarks that irresponsible teenage attitude may be behind an awful lot of stupid royal behavior during the Middle Ages and Early Renaissance, partly because of the rather spoiled, isolated, and non-attached way they were raised, and because most of them didn't make it to their twenties.

Yes, world empires being run by snotty seventeen-year-olds with a chip on their shoulders and an easily insulted pride--oh boy, wot larks.

(Sounds like Cragmen to me...)

Yet, when Naga's age is brought up, Caladrunan comments on how young Naga is, in the terms of responsible Tannese society. So either Drin's class, or society as a whole, thinks that twenty is not quite adult, or barely so.

Folks in a lot of Third World countries would assume that's plenty old enough to be a grownup, and I suspect a lot of refugees like the Upai would have very little choice about it.

That makes the comment a much more interesting reflection on Tannese society than it is on Naga himself. Sounds like a proper banking clan's ideas of sobriety and responsibility to me...

All of that suggests that the guys may have an unexpected childish or sulky teenager streak that pops out at awkward times. Caladrunan himself is probably a mixture of much younger silliness and much older grim responsibility, to our eyes.

I think we'd probably look to him like bloody elves (possibly Terry Pratchett style narsty elves, even.) I suspect that most of our men and nearly all of our women look like royals--we're way too tall, way too well-muscled, way too clean, way too pretty, and way too well-toothed for "real people".

(I like it that way, thank you...)

I think I actually asked about medieval and Elizabethan lifespan at a regional convention that had a lot of recreation, SCA, and RenFaire expert fans, but web searches can give you the depressing numbers on the state of feudal medicine and dentistry. I understand that Roman Empire generally was much better.

Any history buffs, please feel free to offer comments!

Tannese medicine may be a little better, possibly fifteenth-century Western Europe or thirteenth-century Polish or Constantinople, but I really wouldn't want to need an appendectomy there.

The Tannese barely have opiates for pain-killers, and I think they've barely picked up the idea of antisepsis from Sharinen herbalists. They have very little clue about nutrition and they don't seem to have very good antibiotics, and those two are the biggest single improvement in the figures on women dying in childbirth and infant mortality.

Given that, life expectancy for everybody isn't all that great, maybe thirties at most for men, twenty-something on average for women. Baaad.

So you might have an awfully strong inclination to toss caution to the wind, burn the candle at both ends--insert stereotypic euphemisms here for being extremely silly about your private life--and all that jazz.

Hmm, now, that might explain a great deal of early Western European history, too...

On the other hand, once you've survived up to adulthood, so long as you can avoid getting pregnant or cut open by something or living in a big city wide open for various plagues and fires and invasions, you might live to a great long old age.

That doesn't help much if syphilis has made you crazy. I bring that up because it's impossible to bring up gay issues without staring into the face of AIDS. I also noticed that, as a result of comments that the characters tossed out as they go about their business, it seems the Tannese are, shall we say, a little <i>odd</i> about their sexual customs.

Rich guys get to have as many mistresses as they can afford or extort, just as in most hierarchic systems. However, they have to pay for them and keep them as permanent arrangements, for fear of sexually-transmitted diseases. That's some serious diseases.

European nobles might prefer virgins (even faked and doctored ones) but they didn't take the pox and the French and/or English disease <i>that</i> seriously. What is going on with that?

Some very nasty history, clearly--but is it very early Tannese history, or is it actually old half-remembered Sek-blood history, or what?
Nobody who actually knows seems to be telling Naga, and I suspect he's going to want to know the answer some time reasonably soon, and will go kicking backsides until he gets it.

So why are the people who do know, hiding this stuff?

Nothing so far. On with the arse-booting, I say...

So, before I said anything about <i>any</i> of the characters having sex, I'd have to understand that Tannese weirdness, whether or not I shared the Big Sekrit.

It's at least partly embedded back there in the nastier versions of the Tannese colonial attitude, too, insisting that natives might "taint" the "pure-born". To quote certain parodies, "As the stomach turns..."

Maybe the Big Sekrit involves some of that troubling history of conquest, or the coverup of same.

As I said, Naga's interest in <i>any</i> kind of regular sex partners could give his boss big, big headaches. (Various startling opening remarks by Capilla and Agtunki are faily instructive on that one, I think...)

There's readers who'd love to see Naga and Girdeth get married. It's quite reasonable if you see Naga as a straight guy with anj obvious fondness for rude blondes who apparently want to kick him in the shins, the great big softy.

What do I think?

Aaargghghlglgl.

Can you <i>imagine</i> the fuss at their court?

Groan. It'd be <i>far</i> easier to write him off as a drunken Marine queen who takes on any comers on Feastdays out behind the barns. (See, there's a good reason why he shouldn't drink...) But honestly, <i>that's</i> not happening either.
See Tannese, disease, terror of, just above.

There seems to be a strong dichotomy out there among the readers as to whether the guys deserve to be considered gay as we use the word, or not.

Some folks are pretty squicked at the idea. I should hasten to clarify that I've asked about this, and it clearly isn't coming from an ingrained objection to homosexual choices.

This is a serious character consistency and interpretation issue, and I take it seriously.
To some folks, his emotional involvement is slanted toward Caladrunan and Girdeth, and almost nobody else. Given his huge martial-arts mistrust issues, he's unlikely to peel any of that armor for anybody else.

But he <i>did</i> do so, for Tuzo, though he knows practically nothing about her. That surprised me quite a lot.

I'm still not sure whether he felt it was a way of "rescuing" her by making her more acceptable to the rest of the Upai and thereby resolving bad tensions in the camps, or whether Tuzo's dancing just hit some unexpected rah-rah buttons in his head, or whether he's just nuts for the courage in tough-minded women, and doesn't get to see proof of it all that often.

Some slashy folks would be sure that he's queer and trying to placate his angry grandmother by hooking up quick with any girl who'll have him. They might also say that he was just retaliating in a bad, petty manner for Caladrunan being gone, but it doesn't take a sexual relationship to generate <i>that</i> kind of attention-seeking behavior.

I could see any or all of these as explaining a lot, but I may also have missed other things.

As I said, some folks thnk Girdeth is the only reasonable choice. Others think she's always going to be too immature to deal with the likes of somebody as screwed up and violent as he is, and that he's already far too heavily invested in her brother's life to disentangle himself to spare ten minutes with anybody else.

Caladrunan whistles, he's gone.

He might feel bad about it, but he's still gone.

He's clearly done exactly that with Tuzo, who possibly really doesn't want him around as much as <i>he</i> thinks he ought to be.

To other folks, sexual intimacy seems inappropriate to any trusting, brotherly relationship that could be accepted so easily by everybody else in that fictional universe. You don't see that many models of great brotherly relationships out there in f & sf, and I'd hate to cross any of them off the list for a reader.

Then there's the healing aspect of it.

If you see this situation much like that of a abused young patient, one who has come to finally trust an older power figure such as a doctor or psychiatrist, where the patient has neither the capacity to judge boundaries nor any power to refuse an unwanted intimacy, then you can see how creepy the idea of sex between them becomes.

Our current understanding of the nasty repercussions means that an authority figure like that can never justify crossing that line, and should prudently withdraw from any risk of it. Such behavior cannot be justified by any possible interpretation of the authority figure's actions.

Caladrunan is an ethical man, and he knows he's got his hands way down there inside Naga's head. Even without any kind of training, he should anticipate problems with crossing such a boundary line. Therefore, given how Caladrunan's use of authority has been shown, he would not do that.

He's also way too smart to be caught by somebody with no boundaries going after him and seducing him, either, because he's been a very desireable power figure for many years. Everybody's been flattering and chasing him since he was fourteen. (The sheer <i>lack</i> of chasing might be awfully refreshing, come to think.)

These readers are horrified at the idea of that level of vulnerability being exploited in an adult sexual manner, because the person whose head is that badly messed up is not an adult with the ability to make informed choices, and it's not an attractive idea to somebody who wants an equal as a partner.

That doesn't leave a lot of room for a happy gay couple romping in the furs. Or even angsty hurt-comfort couples resolving their fears in a big quilt-wrapped bundle.

I wonder if some slash readers may see Naga as much more independent and coping better with being so messed up, more like a normal person, capable of getting mad at Caladrunan and disagreeing with him and willfully giving him a hard time.

Clearly I've left people a little confused about whether he falls into that category, or more properly into the "total lack of boundaries" state that you'd see in certain stages of a psychiatric relationship. You'd still have quite a conflict defining whether Caladrunan is abusing his power.

I could see a queer Drin refusing to even think about it, as Naga cannot legally refuse anything Drin asks, so no matter what he wants, Drin will never ask. (Yes, the angst meter is looking a little overtaxed, there...)

It's another whole question whether this is something Naga will put up with it, if <i>his</i> orientation inclines him to want Caladrunan in the first place. Whether Naga's bedrock orientation is queer, and more important yet, whether his tastes actually run to that sort of partner, depends on how you interpret what Naga focuses on.

Clearly I've left that a little vague, too, as people disagree about that as well.

You also have the classic gay problem of "daring to ask the question"--what if you gambled badly when you asked? How do you <i>know</i> the other guy might be interested?

Somebody like Drin, with all those strict internal ethical rules, isn't about to give you any easy hints. Very strict--to the point of refusing to do what Naga really wants him to do.

As a slash-oriented writer, then you're left wondering how a queer-oriented Naga Teot would manage to make his wishes clear, and overcome Drin's refusal to take any unfair advantage of him under the Great Oath.

Oh yes, I could visualize some very funny scenes where Naga might make various interesting and original advances which aren't actually rebuffed, but he's also not allowed to coax or push Drin into inappropriate behavior. After all, Drin's had <i>years</i> of practice at preventing inappropriate people from taking liberties with his person and stopping them from drawing inappropriate reactions from him.

What I can't quite imagine is what the originality consists of, and what could possibly <i>work</i> against Drin's willpower. We don't actually <i>want</i> Drin to give way at all. We don't want him to be that weak in the face of temptation.

For those folks who simply can't <i>stand</i> to visualize Naga trying his wacko best to be seductive, and what that kind of thing might involve, yes, you're allowed to leave the room and make horrid faces like the cat with a hairball. Oddly enough, I have the same problem looking at certain actors (who will remain unnamed, for the sake of peace in the fandoms) attempting love scenes, although other people seem to find the very suggestion about them charming, geekily amusing, and even (gag!) effective. Yes, I support your inalienable right to post horrid pictures and lust after disgusting repulsive unshaven stinky guys who-- wait a minute, what am I <i>saying?</i>
For the rest of you, allow me to remind you that the guy can probably pop his upper thoracic vertebrae like certain other martial arts specialist actors (who shall also remain unnamed) and flexibility in other areas is a given.
But enough disgustingly personal speculations on my part.

Whether Naga's sneaky subconscious is already doing this is another matter of interpretation.
I have had fun remarks passed one to me, where someone's mom asked, rather irritably, if the "little crazy guy was queer or something, because he kept losing his clothes."

This amused me a lot, given that she's <i>right,</i> but I actually see Naga as the kind of guy who usually has to be pried out of his leathers and his armor with a can opener, and only then under orders, grumbling all the way. (Maybe that's why he comments about it--it's a fairly unusual event, and other people are involved in making him do it.)

Then there's the really interesting question of what Naga's dignity would allow him to do about all this in the first place, and what he decides is appropriate to his idea of his own self-respect in public life, as well as how he knows the Upai in the refugee camps would interpret it.

Oh yes, he's also quite capable of rudely informing nosy writers that "It's none of yer **$#@! business!"

It won't stop anybody from gossiping about it, of course...

I think some other slash-type readers have a different interpretation of how unequal the relative power in this relationship is.
Some readers tell me that they're reading it as a BD/SM association, where any sexual component is secondary to the main pivot about the experience of power, or pain, or both. If somebody's nervous system or psychology is wired so that they find either one necessary on a regular basis, then even sexual orientation would be secondary to that, or harnessed in the service of powering it up higher. Yes, <i>that</i> one can go off to a lot of scary places.

These folks can read all kinds of interpretations into the books to suggest which man is wired which way, and they could write fanfic that used the same cues for completely opposite interpretations. (Yup, you can find totally conflicting fanfic out there based on different readings of the same evidence in other fandoms.) I don't happen to know of anybody writing such interpretations right now, but it doesn't bother me.

I should explain that I would not bother to argue the point with somebody who wants to read into it whatever they're familiar with. If that interpretation really floats their boat, I don't mind. (I might laugh, but that's my problem.)

As I mentioned on another thread, working briefly on the Teot musical/opera, seeing some drawings done by other artists, has made me aware that sometimes the characters are present and accounted for in forms that surprise me, and may give me food for thought.

I figure that's never a bad thing.

I wasn't aware of slash stories when I wrote the first two books, but I'm not ashamed to say that learning more about it has brought interesting insights. As it happens, I knew there were slash zines out there, but not what the good ones were about. I got asked about it by some great slash folks at a WorldCon after the second book came out.

These days, I do sometimes read some good fan writers working in other canons (when I see friends reccie great stories) and I'll praise slashy goodness wherever I see it offering some great writerly potential. There's some really good writers working out there. Some of them have gone on to become pros, either in that area or in others.

This is of course the classic sf & f fan pattern, it's just not on a topic that the Golden Age guys would have recognized!

I figure that it's getting more mainstream all the time when the Guardian has a snarky review (saying "Don't bother!") fully deserved by the trashy sites they were looking at, and the NY Times has an article on all the silly Brokeback Mountain spoofs are actually a critique of the movie industry.

[htomatogal]

Wow! Your response was so voluminous and meaty! I guess I should have expected that, based on what I've read on this forum, but it still took me by surprise.

Yes, I knew you were a tease -- in the extreme! I say, as long as you get book 3 (3/4?) done, you can do whatever you want.

I was fascinated to learn of the way you write. I have done some (fanfic) writing also (I bet everyone on this forum has), and I get those scenes in my head, not in the right order, sometimes contradictory, etc. I thought it was just me, and that it meant I'm just not much of a writer. To know that a pro does it is a great relief. It does frustrate the hell out of me, sometimes, though--primarily when the scenes won't come at all. That must happen to you, too? What do you do then?

Why is Therin's age problematical? Isn't he like 8 or 9? Caladrunan could easily have been 28 when he was born, even 26 or less. Or is there an issue with when he married?

Yes, it is weird that Tannese society thinks 20 is young. How long do these people (even the nobility) typically live, anyway? They surely don't have that much longer an average life-span than the other folk they deal with.

Well, and here's a (probably dumb) question about fantasy-writing, in general: Are we to assume that people who appear to be human, are human? And therefore, if they have a feudal-looking society, that the characteristics of that society closely parallel those of our own feudal history? So, for example, people die young by our standards?

I remember something in Bloodstorm that indicated that Naga was a virgin. But what about Tuzo? If everyone is so freaked about STDs, how come Naga had sex with her? Women in that kind of society usually don't get to control their own bodies, at least not until they're old enough to acquire substantial fighting skills (and by then, it's probably too late).

Hmmm. I didn't read the Tannese attitude about natives "tainting the pure-born" as anything having to do with STDs. I just figured they were racial bigots.

Naga and Girdeth married? I don't think that one would go over, because of the aforementioned Tannese bigotry. It's not going to be for an alliance, because the Upai no longer really exist as a people. And if the folks favoring this marriage are looking for romance, I'm not sure that works, either. I think Girdeth feels safe with Naga, and free to flirt with him, mainly because she views him as a loving friend, but not as a potential lover. He already loves her brother so much--however that love is expressed--that she's not even in the running.

Funny, it never occurred to me to wonder whether Naga and/or Drin wold be considered "straight" or "gay" in the way we use those terms -- because those are our terms. And we don't even do very well with them. I mean, an awful lot of "straight" people seem to assume that one same-sex attraction (or experience) mean you are "gay." And a lot of "gay" people seem to assume the same thing! (Such as dissing someone who claims to be bisexual as "not wanting to come to terms with the social stigma of being gay, not wanting to stand in solidarity with the gay community.")

I think there's some darn good evidence that humans are all basically on a continuum with regard to our levels of sexual attraction to those of the opposite sex <---> and those of the same sex. Just because I am usually very guy-oriented, does not mean that, with the right person, under the right circumstances, I wouldn't be attracted to another woman. (It's happened.)

Does Naga Teot's culture have to divide everyone into "gay" or "straight"? Couldn't there be room for something like the type of cultural situation apparent in, say, Diane Duane's DOOR INTO FIRE universe (i.e., you have to discharge your genetic duty, but beyond that, who you love is your own business)?

There's been a long-running discussion in slash circles about whether or not both of the guys (or at least one!) in the couple has to have recognized himself as having a primary sexual attraction to other men in order for the pair to be realistically shown developing (or in) a slash relationship.

My own position is that it is quite possible (though it might be rare) for two guys who don't/didn't think of themselves as "gay" or have any real same-sex relationships in their backgrounds, to nevertheless become lovers. But one precondition is required.

In these pairings (at least in the ones I enjoy), the guys already have a very strong bond of friendship and love (as do Naga and Drin) before the sexual question arises. Assuming that both men have some attraction (or even just appreciation) for the physical form of their own gender, the love between them may come to be expressed in physical ways, including sexually.

Whether it does or not depends upon circumstances. Thus, in slash writing, you find situations created wherein the two guys are made vulnerable to, and/or dependent upon, one another. So-called "hurt-comfort" stories are a favorite vehicle for initiating slash, because normal social restrictions go out the window. One guy is hurt, so the other tends his wounds, provides reassurance and protection, thinks how lost he would be w/o the other and how intense his feeling are, etc. (This technique works well to foster ostensibly non-sexualized contact, too -- as you well know, being a Master of it!)

For me, then, the addition of a sexual element to the relationship between Naga and Drin would be an expression--a culmination, if you will--of the love that already exists between them. Certainly not a degradation of that love!

Yes, predictably, I do not see Naga as being w/o boundaries or being as messed up as some readers evidently do. Not only do I think Naga is (to quote you) "capable of getting mad at Caladrunan and disagreeing with him and willfully giving him a hard time," I think we see him doing all of these things in Blood Storm. To me, it seemed he got considerably stronger, more mature, and less messed up during the course of the book. But you haven't really told us what you think, dear Writer!

I'm also confused when you say that, "As a slash-oriented writer, then you're left wondering . . . " Are you saying that you are a slash-oriented writer? Or am I reading my own wishes into this? (Of course, being a slash-oriented writer does not mean that you are writing slash, or going to, with Naga and Drin.) (Then again, if you're "slash-oriented," you might have some little tidbits that you don't intend to publish shoved in a desk drawer somewhere--that I could persuade you to let me drool on!)

I don't know how one guy tells when another guy is sexually receptive to him. But, in this culture at least, they do seem to have ways of picking up on it. ("Gay-dar"?) How did Jack and Ennis in Brokeback Mountain know? Or that ranch foreman who propositioned Jack? (Come to think of it, how do a man and a woman know they are mutually attracted when it's a situation where they can't give open signals?)

If those who favor a BD-type interp of the relationship are allowed to have their way, and if both guys are at least Switches, then one way a determined Naga could seduce Drin would be to tie him up and Dom him. Not suggesting this as a real idea for print or anything . . . but you did ask!

You say that you knew there were slash-zines out there, but didn't know what the good ones were about, until some friends at a WorldCon clued you in. Just wondering what your definition of a "good" slash-zine is.

Also, is there "slashy goodness" out there that I'm missing? If the slash is media-based, I'm a bit limited by the fact that I can only enjoy what I'm somewhat familiar with. The golden age of Classic Trek K/S is nowhere evident on the internet; about the best stuff I've found so far is some archived Starsky & Hutch (don't laugh, if you think that makes me desperate).

Laurel

[hgladney]

I had another long reply to this one, going into huge detail, but I didn't want to post it prematurely, and so when my server link went pop, I lost it. Sigh. Maybe later tonight?

Wow! Your response was so voluminous and meaty! I guess I should have expected that, based on what I've read on this forum, but it still took me by surprise.

Yes, I knew you were a tease -- in the extreme! I say, as long as you get book 3 (3/4?) done, you can do whatever you want.

I was fascinated to learn of the way you write. I have done some (fanfic) writing also (I bet everyone on this forum has), and I get those scenes in my head, not in the right order, sometimes contradictory, etc. I thought it was just me, and that it meant I'm just not much of a writer. To know that a pro does it is a great relief. It does frustrate the hell out of me, sometimes, though--primarily when the scenes won't come at all. That must happen to you, too? What do you do then?

Why is Therin's age problematical? Isn't he like 8 or 9? Caladrunan could easily have been 28 when he was born, even 26 or less. Or is there an issue with when he married?

Yes, it is weird that Tannese society thinks 20 is young. How long do these people (even the nobility) typically live, anyway? They surely don't have that much longer an average life-span than the other folk they deal with.

Well, and here's a (probably dumb) question about fantasy-writing, in general: Are we to assume that people who appear to be human, are human? And therefore, if they have a feudal-looking society, that the characteristics of that society closely parallel those of our own feudal history? So, for example, people die young by our standards?

I remember something in Bloodstorm that indicated that Naga was a virgin. But what about Tuzo? If everyone is so freaked about STDs, how come Naga had sex with her? Women in that kind of society usually don't get to control their own bodies, at least not until they're old enough to acquire substantial fighting skills (and by then, it's probably too late).

Hmmm. I didn't read the Tannese attitude about natives "tainting the pure-born" as anything having to do with STDs. I just figured they were racial bigots.

Naga and Girdeth married? I don't think that one would go over, because of the aforementioned Tannese bigotry. It's not going to be for an alliance, because the Upai no longer really exist as a people. And if the folks favoring this marriage are looking for romance, I'm not sure that works, either. I think Girdeth feels safe with Naga, and free to flirt with him, mainly because she views him as a loving friend, but not as a potential lover. He already loves her brother so much--however that love is expressed--that she's not even in the running.

Funny, it never occurred to me to wonder whether Naga and/or Drin wold be considered "straight" or "gay" in the way we use those terms -- because those are our terms. And we don't even do very well with them. I mean, an awful lot of "straight" people seem to assume that one same-sex attraction (or experience) mean you are "gay." And a lot of "gay" people seem to assume the same thing! (Such as dissing someone who claims to be bisexual as "not wanting to come to terms with the social stigma of being gay, not wanting to stand in solidarity with the gay community.")

I think there's some darn good evidence that humans are all basically on a continuum with regard to our levels of sexual attraction to those of the opposite sex <---> and those of the same sex. Just because I am usually very guy-oriented, does not mean that, with the right person, under the right circumstances, I wouldn't be attracted to another woman. (It's happened.)

Does Naga Teot's culture have to divide everyone into "gay" or "straight"? Couldn't there be room for something like the type of cultural situation apparent in, say, Diane Duane's DOOR INTO FIRE universe (i.e., you have to discharge your genetic duty, but beyond that, who you love is your own business)?

There's been a long-running discussion in slash circles about whether or not both of the guys (or at least one!) in the couple has to have recognized himself as having a primary sexual attraction to other men in order for the pair to be realistically shown developing (or in) a slash relationship.

My own position is that it is quite possible (though it might be rare) for two guys who don't/didn't think of themselves as "gay" or have any real same-sex relationships in their backgrounds, to nevertheless become lovers. But one precondition is required.

In these pairings (at least in the ones I enjoy), the guys already have a very strong bond of friendship and love (as do Naga and Drin) before the sexual question arises. Assuming that both men have some attraction (or even just appreciation) for the physical form of their own gender, the love between them may come to be expressed in physical ways, including sexually.

Whether it does or not depends upon circumstances. Thus, in slash writing, you find situations created wherein the two guys are made vulnerable to, and/or dependent upon, one another. So-called "hurt-comfort" stories are a favorite vehicle for initiating slash, because normal social restrictions go out the window. One guy is hurt, so the other tends his wounds, provides reassurance and protection, thinks how lost he would be w/o the other and how intense his feeling are, etc. (This technique works well to foster ostensibly non-sexualized contact, too -- as you well know, being a Master of it!)

For me, then, the addition of a sexual element to the relationship between Naga and Drin would be an expression--a culmination, if you will--of the love that already exists between them. Certainly not a degradation of that love!

Yes, predictably, I do not see Naga as being w/o boundaries or being as messed up as some readers evidently do. Not only do I think Naga is (to quote you) "capable of getting mad at Caladrunan and disagreeing with him and willfully giving him a hard time," I think we see him doing all of these things in Blood Storm. To me, it seemed he got considerably stronger, more mature, and less messed up during the course of the book. But you haven't really told us what you think, dear Writer!

I'm also confused when you say that, "As a slash-oriented writer, then you're left wondering . . . " Are you saying that you are a slash-oriented writer? Or am I reading my own wishes into this? (Of course, being a slash-oriented writer does not mean that you are writing slash, or going to, with Naga and Drin.) (Then again, if you're "slash-oriented," you might have some little tidbits that you don't intend to publish shoved in a desk drawer somewhere--that I could persuade you to let me drool on!)

I don't know how one guy tells when another guy is sexually receptive to him. But, in this culture at least, they do seem to have ways of picking up on it. ("Gay-dar"?) How did Jack and Ennis in Brokeback Mountain know? Or that ranch foreman who propositioned Jack? (Come to think of it, how do a man and a woman know they are mutually attracted when it's a situation where they can't give open signals?)

If those who favor a BD-type interp of the relationship are allowed to have their way, and if both guys are at least Switches, then one way a determined Naga could seduce Drin would be to tie him up and Dom him. Not suggesting this as a real idea for print or anything . . . but you did ask!

You say that you knew there were slash-zines out there, but didn't know what the good ones were about, until some friends at a WorldCon clued you in. Just wondering what your definition of a "good" slash-zine is.

Also, is there "slashy goodness" out there that I'm missing? If the slash is media-based, I'm a bit limited by the fact that I can only enjoy what I'm somewhat familiar with. The golden age of Classic Trek K/S is nowhere evident on the internet; about the best stuff I've found so far is some archived Starsky & Hutch (don't laugh, if you think that makes me desperate).

Laurel

[htomatogal]

Oh . . . poop! Longshoreman's-ville here when that happens.

Whenever you're able. Your velocity of reply is simply amazing! Abashing.

I need excuses for my lack of same . . .

Work s**ks!

One of my quilly kids (hedgehogs) is sick (just back from vet's) and they've all started to hit their wheels hard now that the spring hormones are rising!

Laurel

[hgladney]

Wow! Your response was so voluminous and meaty! I guess I should have expected that, based on what I've read on this forum, but it still took me by surprise.

Yes, I knew you were a tease -- in the extreme! I say, as long as you get book 3 (3/4?) done, you can do whatever you want.

Now if you could just convince my boss at work about that one...

I was fascinated to learn of the way you write. I have done some (fanfic) writing also (I bet everyone on this forum has), and I get those scenes in my head, not in the right order, sometimes contradictory, etc. I thought it was just me, and that it meant I'm just not much of a writer. To know that a pro does it is a great relief. It does frustrate the hell out of me, sometimes, though--primarily when the scenes won't come at all. That must happen to you, too? What do you do then?

Erm, apparently, drive off to AZ for a week or so.
Barring that, run in circles, scream and shout...
But seriously, I try to move on and work on some other imagery if I'm having trouble with some particular scene, or with sorting out transitions between scenes. If I'm not in the mood to deal with this here, maybe I can deal with that over there. Or maybe I get hit with a new scene completely, that takes everything off in a wacko new directly. But if I'm getting all wrapped round the axle on everything, it's time to go off and do something different. I go off and clean the fish tank or repot some plants or other fun chores that make writing seem...more attractive somehow.
Also, sometimes that little kid-brain needs fresh food. Sometimes I just need to go off and get some new inspiring input, read something good, look at some kind of visuals such as artwork or photos, watch something that jolts my brain back into the right tracks. I find certain sorts of music are often very helpful in setting the right mood for particular scenes, and it varies with what mood I'm in, and what kind of scene I'm trying to work on. Back in the day, I recall listening to Dvorak's New World Symphony on endless repeat (if you recall what lps are) until I reduced the vinyl to a bad case of burbles, hissing, and scratches.

Why is Therin's age problematical? Isn't he like 8 or 9? Caladrunan could easily have been 28 when he was born, even 26 or less. Or is there an issue with when he married?

I believe there's a conflict on how old Therin is, stating he's twelve in one place and 8 or 9 in another, I think in the first book. I don't even remember now if I could get away with suggesting that the 12-year-old is one of the older girls, and the 8-year-old boy is the first Heir.
(Buncha patriarchal sods, aren't they?)
Yes, it's been awhile since I read my own books, why do you ask???

Yes, it is weird that Tannese society thinks 20 is young. How long do these people (even the nobility) typically live, anyway? They surely don't have that much longer an average life-span than the other folk they deal with.

I understand that Egyptian elites would live maybe 5-10 years longer than commoners, but they still had similar wear on their teeth from the stone grit in their bread, similar lung problems from the cooking smoke and dust in the air, and very similar communicable disease issues.
At that, they lived longer than the lousy conditions allowed by medieval conditions, depending on where you lived. Also, I understand that most ancient towns burned down about every hundred to two hundred years, you could count on getting burned out in a war or accident eventually. Did I mention I wuuuv modern medicine, and hydraulics for firefighting are our friends?

Well, and here's a (probably dumb) question about fantasy-writing, in general: Are we to assume that people who appear to be human, are human? And therefore, if they have a feudal-looking society, that the characteristics of that society closely parallel those of our own feudal history? So, for example, people die young by our standards?

I had the fun thought at one point that Tannese dogs might not be anything like what we think of as "hairy, 4-footed, noisy, sociable", except that I didn't give the kind of extended description for them as I did for the really weird, such as ganas. I just used the word "dog", as if it was a straight translation. The bits of description for various plants and animals suggest sheep are always sheep, oaks are oaks, and so on--more like survivals than parellel evolution from an alien source. There's a lot of small scruffy beasts like coyotes and possums and domestic animals, not apparently many of the large things like bears. All that aside, the ganas suggest that all kinds of things may be a little odd to our eyes, and I wouldn't exclude the people from that. The idea of the Wastelands suggests there could be all kinds of toxins that cause genetic damage. I haven't talked much about disabled beggars in Tan, and out in the desert, Naga wouldn't see many of them survive for long. Most of those who get toxic-style fast-moving cancers would die pretty quickly. However, I'm suspecting that those who don't become sick have pretty robust immune systems, and they certainly get plenty of exercise. They'd probably still get cataracts from all that unprotected sun exposure.

I remember something in Bloodstorm that indicated that Naga was a virgin. But what about Tuzo? If everyone is so freaked about STDs, how come Naga had sex with her? Women in that kind of society usually don't get to control their own bodies, at least not until they're old enough to acquire substantial fighting skills (and by then, it's probably too late).

Hmmm. I didn't read the Tannese attitude about natives "tainting the pure-born" as anything having to do with STDs. I just figured they were racial bigots.

I'm still a little puzzled why Naga did that. He mentions a couple of the pressures involved, such as marrying a Upai girl he can stand to be around, let alone respect. I have the sneaking suspicion it might have something to do with childishly defying his grandmother's efforts to control things, or getting back at Drin for leaving him behind, which are not exactly noble motives, and therefore he won't admit to it. To be fair, he's also crazy about folks with courage, he likes that a lot in Drin and Girdeth and Vopi and others. Plus, Tuzo's level of competence physically is a rare treat to work with, one that he thinks will work better long-term for his personality than anybody else he's seen out in the camps. She understands that skill takes constant practice, for instance.
However, he has real problems with looking at his grandmother, looking at his own reflection (he's not used to mirrors, let alone higher-quality Tannese mirrors), as he gets flashbacks of both dying family and the Osa who killed them. Those images are powerfully fascinating to him, but it also sets off bad negative revulsion. I suspect he'd be teetering on a sharp edge of attraction and repulsion dealing with Tuzo, all by himself, let alone coping with her additional problems and hostility toward men.

Naga and Girdeth married? I don't think that one would go over, because of the aforementioned Tannese bigotry. It's not going to be for an alliance, because the Upai no longer really exist as a people. And if the folks favoring this marriage are looking for romance, I'm not sure that works, either. I think Girdeth feels safe with Naga, and free to flirt with him, mainly because she views him as a loving friend, but not as a potential lover. He already loves her brother so much--however that love is expressed--that she's not even in the running.

Yes on all points. I might say it as "sharpening her claws", since preteen and teenage girls are often so hard on the older men they decide to "practice" on. But I like your wording better! Also, he's very careful around her, he's unsure what the rules are and how to avoid unseemly gossip about her. He doesn't want to damage her, but he's also keenly aware that mistakes might harm Drin. He doesn't want to create a huge mess that Drin has to clean up.

Funny, it never occurred to me to wonder whether Naga and/or Drin wold be considered "straight" or "gay" in the way we use those terms -- because those are our terms. And we don't even do very well with them. I mean, an awful lot of "straight" people seem to assume that one same-sex attraction (or experience) mean you are "gay." And a lot of "gay" people seem to assume the same thing! (Such as dissing someone who claims to be bisexual as "not wanting to come to terms with the social stigma of being gay, not wanting to stand in solidarity with the gay community.")

I think there's some darn good evidence that humans are all basically on a continuum with regard to our levels of sexual attraction to those of the opposite sex <---> and those of the same sex. Just because I am usually very guy-oriented, does not mean that, with the right person, under the right circumstances, I wouldn't be attracted to another woman. (It's happened.)

Does Naga Teot's culture have to divide everyone into "gay" or "straight"? Couldn't there be room for something like the type of cultural situation apparent in, say, Diane Duane's DOOR INTO FIRE universe (i.e., you have to discharge your genetic duty, but beyond that, who you love is your own business)?

Well, losing my original post has allowed me to stumble across this lovely little link with all kinds of sexuality scales, starting with Kinsey and criticizing from there. Nice basic explanations of the scales that they list. I think this agrees with what you're saying.
You may have to click through various security blah-blah boxes to get to it, depending on your browser. Also, if you've seen more or better measures, feel free to post 'em.
https://kp1.no-ip.org/servlet/redirect. ... uality#top

I think most of the Tannese Naga encounters, at court, see things through a sieve of both competitive and inherited status. Naga has no independent wealth, no position, no status to the courtiers, he might as well be a convenient dishrag Drin picked up, he's totally enveloped within Drin's cloud of influence and practically another ear. They don't understand why Naga lurks in Drin's shadow like that, they think anyone who has any sort of manly instincts would be fighting to grab his own patch of property, a little bit of sun, conflicting with Drin. Also, they're wondering nervously if he's just waiting until the proper moment to attack and grab as widely as possible. They can't get the idea that he's not even interested in the things they value so highly.
However, as a bouting champion, he's also sending plenty of old-fashioned physical prowess signals that he's more like the piratical ancestors of the Tannese than they are, standing foursquare on his own abilities, defying anybody to challenge him. That's part of what's so popular with the ladies. However, they're still thinking of it as an athletic sport, a choice, rather than the way Naga himself regards his own need to practice as deadly serious, as survival.
At first Naga simply isn't interested in their ideas of manly prowess. The deep-desert Upai see that gathering large bulky things which you can't defend against the vagaries of fate as completely absurd. They're much more interested in developing internal knowledge and strengths and increasing the flexibility of their responses to threats. Drin knows all kinds of things that Naga doesn't, so of course Naga is interested in learning how large empires work, what shores them up, what will crack them, how to manage large groups of civilians. Because he's become so invested in helping Drin succeed (regardless of what they do about the Osa in the end) he's willing to bend and try things and take risks he wouldn't have tolerated before. He's been learning from Drin that the social cues and gossip and all that "wasted time" socializing are important to survival in this very different environment.

There's been a long-running discussion in slash circles about whether or not both of the guys (or at least one!) in the couple has to have recognized himself as having a primary sexual attraction to other men in order for the pair to be realistically shown developing (or in) a slash relationship.

My own position is that it is quite possible (though it might be rare) for two guys who don't/didn't think of themselves as "gay" or have any real same-sex relationships in their backgrounds, to nevertheless become lovers. But one precondition is required.

In these pairings (at least in the ones I enjoy), the guys already have a very strong bond of friendship and love (as do Naga and Drin) before the sexual question arises. Assuming that both men have some attraction (or even just appreciation) for the physical form of their own gender, the love between them may come to be expressed in physical ways, including sexually.

Whether it does or not depends upon circumstances. Thus, in slash writing, you find situations created wherein the two guys are made vulnerable to, and/or dependent upon, one another. So-called "hurt-comfort" stories are a favorite vehicle for initiating slash, because normal social restrictions go out the window. One guy is hurt, so the other tends his wounds, provides reassurance and protection, thinks how lost he would be w/o the other and how intense his feeling are, etc. (This technique works well to foster ostensibly non-sexualized contact, too -- as you well know, being a Master of it!)

For me, then, the addition of a sexual element to the relationship between Naga and Drin would be an expression--a culmination, if you will--of the love that already exists between them. Certainly not a degradation of that love!

Lovely description there. You could see it also as entire logical history of of the evolution of fannish writing from hurt/comfort through angsty romantic gay stories to outright porn onward to some very dark goth hard-nosed stuff.
However, that logical trajectory of growing from friends into lovers has to overcome two objections that I've noticed of late.
I don't have the link now, but I read an interesting description about how many closeted queer folk (or those in denial) twist themselves into knots trying to make sure they send out the right signals and none of the wrong ones, so an impulsive action is nearly always to be feared. They try so hard to fit in to straight expectations that they become too mannered, too careful, and aware they're being too artificial, but trying to back off and relax more just makes it all the harder. They know there's rules about it, all of them unspoken, that can get them killed if they read it wrong. Such folk also find it torture to endure such a "friendly" situation as you described, because a physical attraction just adds more nervous force to the whole nightmare repression, along with the fear that a friend won't remain a friend if they really knew the truth. It's far easier to back off and stay cool, reject any chance of betraying themselves, not take those risks. Not a pretty picture.
It makes the overpowering quality of the attraction between the cowboys seem all that much more remarkable.
Then there's other reasons why you might be more cautious with time.
In many cases, as you get to know somebody better, it becomes harder to cross established boundaries, not easier. It's often easier to touch a relative stranger (given a reasonably safe environment) than it is to reach out awkardly to a co-worker you've known for some years. The established relationship hasn't naturally framed itself like that, so it's a risky stretch to push it in that direction.
Slash stories often fail to take into account "face," as it might be known in China or Japan--things like offended dignity, and public presence, and gossip--and nobody operates in a vaccuum.
In the case of the Tannese, they'd find it hard to overcome too much gap of social status between different classes of wealth. The richer partner's social equals would always be wondering if the poorer person is a gold-digger, and the poor ones would expect to get cast aside when the "whim of the day" changes, expecting the rich one will inevitably get bored with the tiresomely well-known. They wouldn't understand how these two guys could possibly ever find enough common ground to keep talking.
Then there's smaller-scale expectations that build up. Badly-written stories simply skip over it sloppily, without convincing me that they understand the real risks involved in making risky new gestures and stretching a developed bond in a new direction. Slashy cop stories often fail to deal with how many fine unspoken lines are already set up, particularly when the stakes are high, when it really matters what you said, when, and who else knows about it. Many people become very careful under those circumstances. I see real people being very cautious, little tiny baby-steps toward getting to know their co-workers, and only when they like them already, or when there's really no other choice.
I do think people like Drin are capable of making big, risky, tough gestures, and demanding that other people around them have to be equal to it. For Naga and Drin, nearly all of those reaching-out gestures are done by Drin. The moment where Drin grabs Naga around the neck, in some sort of angry, defiant despair--partly angry at Naga, and obviously very angry at other people, and obviously half-expecting it will provoke Naga into violence--is one of those moments. But Naga won't brawl with him like an amateur. On another day, he might respond by tickling him or wrestling him, but the suddn mood worries him, so he stays neutral, neither withdrawing nor pushing into it, nor challenging him. Naga comes across about the same as one of the dogs, more worried that Drin is acting funny, much more than worried he's going to get executed for something.

Yes, predictably, I do not see Naga as being w/o boundaries or being as messed up as some readers evidently do. Not only do I think Naga is (to quote you) "capable of getting mad at Caladrunan and disagreeing with him and willfully giving him a hard time," I think we see him doing all of these things in Blood Storm. To me, it seemed he got considerably stronger, more mature, and less messed up during the course of the book. But you haven't really told us what you think, dear Writer!

Thank you! I'm pleased that it read that way, that he clearly calmed down over the length of that book. He's got some inner conflicts sorted out, he's much more relaxed about his place in the world.
Some would read into it that he's finally figured out he's queer, or he's got BD/SM traits, or both, or some other kink that he's learned others share, and that it's okay within the new rules.
Others would assume that he's a hard-working dog who needs to see visible signs of progress and impact from his efforts, and who's finally starting to see some results.
Still others would assume that he's a kid who's taken on some responsibility and he's starting to settle down into harness and learn how to work with others, to believe that other people care how well he's doing.
In Andre Norton's work, the whole point of the books was often to show such a loner acquiring friends and becoming integrated into a new group that is supportive as their old social environment was not. That alone has a huge impact.
Ahh, and you've noticed that I was trying to avoid imposing a particular bias about how people interpret all this. Trying to fence-sit like that is painful (darn, those pickets are sharp!) and it earns nobody's respect, but it does have to virtue of reminding me not to fall off into huge schmaltzy self-indulgent bad-writing messes on either side.

I'm also confused when you say that, "As a slash-oriented writer, then you're left wondering . . . " Are you saying that you are a slash-oriented writer? Or am I reading my own wishes into this? (Of course, being a slash-oriented writer does not mean that you are writing slash, or going to, with Naga and Drin.) (Then again, if you're "slash-oriented," you might have some little tidbits that you don't intend to publish shoved in a desk drawer somewhere--that I could persuade you to let me drool on!)

I mentioned being able to fence-sit (ouch), but I also consciously try to see a story like this both with and without the pink rhinestone slashy glasses. Sometimes I do fall off too far in one direction or another (I've been reminded by beta-readers that too much "group guy jocularity" is just too much, for instance.) As for things that may or may not hatch, we all have things composting busily away in drawers, turning into goodness knows what. We wouldn't be writers if we didn't try out all kinds of silly ideas!

I don't know how one guy tells when another guy is sexually receptive to him. But, in this culture at least, they do seem to have ways of picking up on it. ("Gay-dar"?) How did Jack and Ennis in Brokeback Mountain know? Or that ranch foreman who propositioned Jack? (Come to think of it, how do a man and a woman know they are mutually attracted when it's a situation where they can't give open signals?)

Context, body language such as eye movement, dress, and socialized cues in sub-cultures are the easy ones. Noticing things about somebody non-obvious in the majority culture of the area is trickier. I'd be thinking about that reversal-reversal thing where somebody's behavior is a little too controlled, a little too carefully on-cue.

If those who favor a BD-type interp of the relationship are allowed to have their way, and if both guys are at least Switches, then one way a determined Naga could seduce Drin would be to tie him up and Dom him. Not suggesting this as a real idea for print or anything . . . but you did ask!

So I did!
One of the problems is, of course, managing any sort of safe privacy in which to indulge whatever astonishing antics Naga might like to try. You know, a cozy place somewhere in which somebody large, wearing blue, won't roar in screaming for help, misinterpreting events badly.
I always wonder how kings and princes manage anything of the sort. Obviously, somebody like Pitar has to be running interference.
Which means somebody would have to explain to Pitar (or whoever) what they are doing, so the proper guardian can distinguish between play and real problems.
Either Pitar is a much more interesting man than we ever realized, or he's seen it all, and been impressed by very little of it.

Well, I did say it might be very funny.

You say that you knew there were slash-zines out there, but didn't know what the good ones were about, until some friends at a WorldCon clued you in. Just wondering what your definition of a "good" slash-zine is.

Also, is there "slashy goodness" out there that I'm missing? If the slash is media-based, I'm a bit limited by the fact that I can only enjoy what I'm somewhat familiar with. The golden age of Classic Trek K/S is nowhere evident on the internet; about the best stuff I've found so far is some archived Starsky & Hutch (don't laugh, if you think that makes me desperate).

Laurel

IMHO, the really good stuff acts as an ambassador for the material it arose from, so you don't really *need* to know a series or movie canon to get the story. Those, I think, are probably creme de la creme stories. They function as good stories in their own right, showing change and development and resolution, giving you the details you need to know in a way that doesn't bore the folks who already know the outlines. A good story will give a vivid description in such a way that it interests the knowledgeable fans; it might suggest new and deeper meanings.
Some people gauge a story by how well it uses obscure bits of canon and fits the language, cadence, and style used by the characters, which is a whole other kind of writing skill as distinct as poetry from prose. Being able to write like a whole varied stable of different tv series writers is a skill respected in fandom which I've seen used and commented on nowhere else, though it might be very useful to a screenwriter trying to break in.
As for good stuff, it may only seem that way to me, so take the following with large grains of salt. At the risk of offending somebody I've read and liked, I'm leaving out a bunch of good stuff recced by various fans, for lack of time.

Try the explanation with link to classically-oriented story here.
http://nagasvoice.livejournal.com/130880.html

Try lots of the Yuletide stuff here. I rather like the Discworld and Good Omens Pratchett ones.
http://www.yuletidetreasure.org/
The search engine here has a narrow window for fandoms, but there are a *lot* of different fandoms in there, in cluding a lot of literary and anime sources, not just media. There's also past years of Yuletide collections, which also have some Good Omens stories, among others.
http://www.yuletidetreasure.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi

I also am not bothered by fictional stories where the names of real actors are used, their public personas as known are projected into alternate lives, alternate universes, and new situations. It's an AU, to me. Also, if you think an effective porn scene is easy to write...or easy to read, hah. This is an index for a particularly prolific and quite effectively pornish writer who can set up an alien environment in less than a paragraph. I rather liked their Mardi Gras and Na Goshi and Templar series, haven't gone through the really long On the Ropes one.
http://maidazia.livejournal.com/189523.html
That's just the index of established work. The writer's current lj with new stuff is here.
http://abundantlyqueer.livejournal.com/

AQ also co-write some interesting Western stuff here. It's as if the actors from a certain famous movie series were living in an alternate history. Scroll back for some of the early work and you'll see some of ht emost chilling descriptions of a wife-beater I've ever read--and how he goes down.
Try here,
http://community.livejournal.com/west__trips/
or here, same things listed differently.
http://www.digitalcandy.net/users/shaen ... index.html

I'm also looking for experimental value, for literary value. A number of people post Potter-universe stuff here. Quality varies, but some very good stuff here. Often dark, often from the POV of the bad guys rather than worshipping the heroes, and often rude.
http://community.livejournal.com/hp_literotica/

One of those writers does some very nice work on all the "bad" guys, with lots of subtlety, but I think she's particularly good on Peter Pettigrew's development into what he eventually becomes. Scroll back through her lj to see story links.
http://gehayi.livejournal.com/

[hgladney]

Appropos of plotting and its effect on character integrity, I found this entry very interesting.
linkie over here!

...I am grumbling very slowly at Chapter 2 of The Mirador. This is the book that taught me how to plot--insofar as I could be said to have any grasp of plot whatsoever.* But this means that, especially in the early chapters, I was still learning how to plot, and certain things that happen later in the book could stand to have better set-up than they do. Also, of course, there's the new first person narrator, but if my trusty and well-belovèd beta [info]matociquala is to be believed (and she is), I may actually be getting a grip on that. But still. I think the hardest thing I've learned--in that it took me a long time and in that it's still really difficult to work with--is that characters have to do things for their own reasons. Not for my reasons. And it doesn't matter if their reasons never get explained in the story. They still have to be there. And they have to be--not consistent, because human beings aren't, but coherent. Yes, characters are puppets, and yes, authorial solipicism is justified (they don't exist if I'm not looking at them), but it's crucial to pretend that these things are not true. That they're people. That their lives continue off the page.

It feels to me like ... like protecting the characters' dignity. Whether they're villains or heroes or spear-carriers or clowns. Making them behave out of character is a kind of deliberate humiliation--and doing it unintentionally is almost worse, because it signals very clearly that I didn't care enough to pay attention to them, to understand what they would and would not do. And characters deserve that kind of dignity, that integrity. No matter what horrible things I do to them, I owe it to them to let them face disaster as themselves.

Because that's the best any of us can do.


---
*No, you haven't fallen into a temporal anomaly. Between 1994 and 1999, I wrote a book called The Shadow of the Mirador. Then I wrote the sequel (which was at that time called Labyrinths Within). Then I went back and rewrote The Shadow of the Mirador, turning it into two books, viz. Mélusine and The Virtu. And now I've worked my way back around to Labyrinths Within The Mirador again. When I finally get to work on Summerdown, it'll be the first time in, um, five years or so that I'll be writing fresh instead of revising. ... No wonder I feel some days like Sisyphus with a balky hippopotamus....