I've edited here for typos.
Curt said: I never really thought of Naga and Drin's relationship as sexual (intense, certainly, physical, maybe, but not sexual), and yet some readers clearly view your book as a breakthrough in homoerotic fantasy (for example, the latest newcomer to the forums, but I've seen other similar commentary on websites). Am I missing the boat on this?
To which I said:
...the cute answer would be, "Whether *you're* missing the boat depends on who's doing the comments."
The more complex answer is that some people see cues that others don't read the same way, and it can be really interesting to notice the differences.
Long answer:
At the time they were written, there seemed to be *no* possiblity of getting that much published using frankly gay characters except in gay porn. Certainly not something like Kushner's Swordspoint. A few things in these books were pushing it with Ace.
They have a point, too. Some folks slash everything happily. (I have no problem with that viewpoint, handled with some idea of consequences.) But I've read critiques of slash fiction that suggests that ambiguous situations like this one, where there's room for fan interpretation, are actually more to the slash fan's taste than simple outright gay fiction. In Ace's view at the time, those kinds of fans would be happy anyway with it, as it is. And if it stays pretty gen in character, then the folks who don't like that idea don't have to confront stuff that squicks them.
But the whole issue does bring up some serious questions that I haven't really clarified in the first two books.
There's some serious character consequences whichever way you read the relationship between the two men.
As far as public life goes, there's all the usual problems of an authority figure's choice of friends. The Tannese court probably would care more about the disjunct in status between them, as being unsuitable--"Naga's not one of us. He doesn't know the rules. He's rude and he doesn't know how to handle the right people who need flattering. He'll mess up on delicate things. What's wrong with picking your friends among *nice* people? Why doesn't he pick friends among people *we* know?" Lado, after all, is from a rather poor clan also, and whines freely about it.
Caladrunan has just told all those snobs and status-fearful folks to lump it. *Again.*
They rank lower than the two Harpers as far as his time and attention goes, no matter how noble their antecedents. It's enough to make a fancy noble conspire with traitors, I swear it is.
Naga is certainly a favorite, and has to be handled as one, no matter what anybody likes about it. Caladrunan has clearly decided that Naga's quick enough to learn what matters fast enough that he won't mess up on delicate matters all that badly, and also that the court is robust enough to handle the discomfort of such an outsider challenging their assumptions.
(He might rather like that aspect of it, even if it's pretty rough on Naga and those who get challenged.)
The authority figure has clearly decided that his voting block in the Council is robust enough to handle challenges based on envy, jealousy, or frustrated ambitions--some other officers aren't as tired as Pitar is, they might have wanted to become commander of the night watches, for instance, instead of Naga.
All of that is no small issue, if you're trying to run any organization. The status and power decisions involved there seem bigger and more important the longer I've been working in a hierarchy myself. What exactly is Naga's job, who does he report to, who does he have to learn from, who are his subordinates? Whose nose is bent out of joint by the sudden presence of this parvenu?
t's not emphasized all that much in the first two books--but certainly some folks at court at the end of the second book would be asking themselves if the betrayal by Keth is just simple jealousy, or just the natural result of fracturing the court so badly by the disruption of introducing such a forceful and mismatched individual as Naga. They would be gossiping in ways that convey the idea Caladrunan should have expected it, he was so careless with his power base.
In some countries, the power aspect would matter far more than whether the two men were lovers. But in other countries, sex would be a huge added risk of religious or political animus, rather like painting a huge target on your own back and saying, "Shoot me now and get it over with!"
I haven't been specific enough about Tan's political and religious structure to judge whether it goes to either of these extremes, but I suspect in a colonial power like this, the native vs. high-born noble aspect trumps a lot of other things. "He didn't go to the right school!" No kidding!
It's certainly an issue that any power figure as careful as Caladrunan is would have to think about if he decides to indulge. I don't think there's anything in the books that suggest he's careless about such things.
Besides, that [character flaws such as boinking the wrong person] may be very common, but it's such a boring and disappointing character flaw to see. We're already too familiar with figures of authority who get so arrogant that, even when it's a very bad idea, simply don't bother to keep it in their pants. Boooring.
So I can also understand folks who, following this chain of logic, would be very dismayed to be told "the two are lovers in spite of everything, and they don't care who knows it." It isn't purely being squicked about homosexual behavior that bothers them in that case--it's the rampant carelessness about all those other consequences, the political fallout.
Then there's some huge personal ethics involved in this if either or both of the guys are gay or bixesual. This has nothing to do with "Christian ethics", and everything to do with the Great Oath.
First of all, how would you go about asking the other guy if your gaydar is right, and how about going dancing on the weekend? Just *asking* is a bit of a problem.
Can Caladrunan actually ask something like this of a soldier sworn to his service? It'd be perfectly legitimate in the law, he can literally ask anything he wants to, under the Great Oath.
But Naga has no choice about obeying the request.
Now, I realize some of the kinkier BDSM folks love that kind of thing.
But how well does that fit with Caladrunan's view of free will?
Big no-no. In Caladrunan's mind, he can't. It might be against Naga's own free will--and just making a mild suggestion is sufficient to make it a command. Naga might be obligated to pretend he likes the whole idea no matter what he thinks, which is Just Wrong. So, under Caladrunan's strict ethical standards, he simply can't ask. I suspect Caladrunan goes way out of his way to avoid invoking the Great Oath, even when he'd really love to smack down that smartaleck Harper mouth just *once*. But no, the only time he'd do it would be if he assessed some very high risk of motality, where he *must* command Naga to do as he's told.
(Naga probably has plenty to say about it under those circumstances, too, which doesn't exactly make it easier to do next time.)
Then there's all the problems if you turn the chessboard round the other way. All that pride--would Naga even begin to admit that he wants anything, if it smacks of trying to ingratiate himself, or weasle his way into Caladrunan's trust, or earn favors? He doesn't like the mythic image of LOTR's Grima Wormtongue--he'd bend over backwards to avoid appearing to be that character.
Also, the fits are humiliating. Who'd choose to let your boss see you like that? Would you court any further chances of it?
A lot of folks would vanish every chance they got, just to avoid the risk of havig another random epileptic seizure in front of the boss.
So it's quite striking that Naga stays so close to Caladrunan, he's there on his own time, he doesn't make excuses to disappear. He has various work-related reasons for that, making sure Caladrunan is safe, but he seems to just like being there. Some at court would accuse him of being just another power-sucker (sort of like vaccuums, you know) who gravitate toward authority figures, and he'd probably bend over backward to avoid looking like that, too.
Does he want something? Or does he just enjoy Caladrunan's company more than that of most other people he knows? Is Caladrunan just an inherently cool person to hang out with?
I don't know that I gave a lot of evidence for that, either, though I suspect he's very good at the meet and greet thing.
("Hello, I'm the Kingie, and I'm pretty good with getting messes sorted out, too.")
Then there's problems with fan responses if I get dogmatic about how things are, one way or the other.
Some people do read it as a sexual or near-sexual relationship very clearly--some like it that way, while others see it that way in spite of themselves, because it bothers them a whole lot, they don't like it.
One fan reported that her mother read it and said, "Are they gay or something? Why is the short crazy guy always losing his clothes?"
Which made me laugh, because *I* tend to think of Naga as the sort of guy who never takes off his armor, sleeps in his boots, and hates being dragged off into the bathing room--it might show where he's got his weapons stashed away!! In my mind, he's about the last guy in Fortress who'll get sweet-talked into doing something silly with his clothes.
But it doesn't mean he doesn't get asked, a lot. That challenge alone might actually get him a lot of pesky attention he doesn't like from those folks at court frantic to prove their powers, or score points, or something.
And I don't think he's buying any of that. He probably could, if he wanted, have a lot of flings, and he could use all kinds of various excuses for it. He might not even bother to mention it as important to him, if he thinks it's trivial. Sort of like, "washed car, took dog to vet, dropped in at parties a b and c--boring, all--and bonked Ladies X,Y, and Z."
His buddy Lado certainly seems to get away with all kinds of unspecified nonsense that nobody seems to punish him for. They just tease him a lot, but it's also unclear just what Lado the flirt is actually doing with his girlfriends, and what the consequences might be.
I've also seen people comment that the unadmitted gay passion thing gets really old, just get it on and get it over with and move on (presumably to other boyfriends, which could lead to amusing security complications indeed), and the endless tease is just boring. (!)
Other folks don't think the wild thing has happened and [it] isn't going to, even if they'd *really* like to believe it. Some slash fans who've read it comment that it's pretty intense already, there's a lot of pressure on the two men in ways that tend to forge friends into a committed couple, and there's a lot of trust there already, so if anything sexual was going to happen, it'd already have blown up in front of you. And it hasn't.
Blink.
Erm.
I mentioned that it was pushing boundaries a bit as it was?
Then there's a fan contingent who really like a brotherly relationship, where the concern and willingness to act on another's behalf doesn't depend on some ulterior motive like sexual gratification. In their view, the power issues involved in Naga's gaining so much influence so suddenly are more than enough to deal with, thank you.
But there is a good point there. In many fictional snapshots of erotic relationships, there's all kinds of angst and fear and obsession and sweaty visuals, but not often much proof of compassion or tolerance or just plain old courage to face up to the other person's faults and your own. Siblings are seen as much more willing to do this, in fiction--but from what I hear people say [in real life], long-term committed relationships are far more about the tolerance and the toe-to-toe daily courage than they are about sexy visuals. I think it can be much more interesting, done right. So, either way I chose to write it, why would I leave out the nonsexual, daily relationship, brotherly aspects of it?
Curt said:
I do think that for me as a reader, having the relationship turn sexual would "cheapen" it.
To which I replied:
In good news, we think we've got the wireless connection problem fixed--yeahh!!
And thanks for your patience with a meandering answer, there.
It's a very good question in the first place, because there are so many ramifications from it. I left out a few others, too.
"Not cheapening it" covers a huge amount of territory in terms of gang politics and guy interactions and power relations.
The cultural differences on what's okay and what's not vary tremendously, more than most people realize. The way *you're* reading it, you may be tolerantly allowing for more variation between our ideas and Tannese ones of what's brotherly and nonsexual than someone who's assuming that level of intimacy (massage such as neck and back rubs, for instance) automatically means continuing the spectrum into sexual contact.
If you're touching somebody at all, in American terms, you're pretty close up on them, you're very intimate. What is acceptable varies so much in families, let alone in cultures, but it's also partly based on our high level of technology, which allows a pretty high level of privacy in many respects.
The Tannese don't have nearly the same insulation going on. They may be pretty distant compared to some of the native communities on things like interpersonal space and the spacing of chairs (hey, they *have* chairs, not just benches!) and the sizes of rooms.
But by our standards, it's a *whole* lot of "Too Much Information!"
In this imaginary country, if you have tummy problems that mean you have to stop the entire riding party to visit the bushes every twenty minutes, we all know it. If you are allegic to shellfish, we know that too. If the Lord of Tan wants to bathe every night, we know all about it, we can hear the pipes gurgling, even if we're not the ones who have to heat up the water for it. Most laundry in Fortress might get thrown in some sort of watermill-driven mangle and then dried on racks by the ovens in the winter, but it's some live person who hauled it out of the chamber and over to the winch basket, or worst of all, personally carried it right down the tower stairs. The housekeeper and laundry for the royals might be a special section all their own, proud of how rigorously they were selected for discretion, very well-known to commanders like Pitar and Naga. But you can imagine the pressure there to sell information: They *know*.
There's village-style accountability on other scales, too. The amount of food going in and out of the kitchens gets counted, rigorously, in properly-run Holds. However, special arrangements with guys who've done it for years, and the unspoken corruption there, could not be questioned at all easily, either. "Just don't ask about Big Louie, okay?"
It's a small town in a lot of respects. If you don't show up for class, the parents will be hearing about their kid skylarking around the daily market, and asking the tutor what's going on. If you're trying to court a friend's sister against the wishes of their parents, the entire neighborhood probably knows it. They may be conspiring with the parents against you, instead of helping you out, too--be ready for that leg thrust out to trip you as you're running away. Yes, you knew Lado was good at dodging and ducking, but he's even more athletic than most readers realize!
In that context, too many people know whatever is going on, and if it isn't socially acceptable, they'll fuss about it. Loudly.
Another sort of reader might assume that what's there already implies that sexual contact would be okay too, as part of the trust spectrum. The two guys are already inside the physical boundaries implied by a culture that uses bladed weapons. They're already in each other's pockets. Anything more personl is just more of the same.
But the Tannese are not easygoing about actual sexual contact. From somewhere in their history, certainly involving their initial contact with the Sekblood court, they have some history of STDs that they've handled by setting up pleasure house contracting. You can buy your mistress or your Kehran boy, you can have more than one, but they can't share it about if you've picked up something nasty. They're yours forever after that. They can be executed, and their extra lover with them, if we catch them cheating. (Yes, it's grossly unfair.)
The Tannese have all these fussy rules about primogeniture and avoiding disease and contracts with pleasure women, so it'd be strange if they aren't equally complex about the less obvious, unspoken rules for other kinds of contact. With commercial pressure brought to bear, the actual laws might be especially strict about arrangements that try to dodge paying for pleasure house contracts and might spread STDs, as this risk is what justifies the entire pleasure house contract. I can't see the pleasure house legal beagles going for any rules allowing partners to be in long-term committed relationships that weren't arranged through the pleasure houses. They might harass people trying to do this. Money certainly talks, but it's possible the houses aren't powerful enough to get the final say about that. I don't know if there's be enough counter-pressure to allow such an exception to the general commerical arrangements. Fat Nella is pretty powerful, but she's also smart; she might tell the beagles to lay off because she knows it won't impact her business, those committed folks wouldn't be buying her wares anyway, and if she's clever, they may instead come to her for help sorting out the legal stuff.
Yes, special interests...
As for trampling on Tannese rules out of ignorance or arrogance, Naga may be breaking all kinds of rules and doesn't even know it, shocking everybody. My suspicion is that he's more aware than most people of what the unspoken rules are. If he's just learning new rules, then either he'll be very quick to pick up on the problem and avoid breaking those rules in future, or else decide to go on as he began, as the single allowed spectacular exception, but it would make him nervous.
Not a fun bunch of people, all in all.
At a more sophisticated level, a reader might be seeing a double message, where anything the guys do would be carefully thought-out to look acceptable and innocuous, but be loaded with repressed homosexual tension. If it's not okay to be queer, then your public gestures--and Caladrunan leads a thoroughly public life, even in his private chambers--have to be carefully edited.
In such a society, even if it's a simple gesture of brotherly concern, or of trying to ensure basic competence at self-defense, then they'd still have to be careful not to appear to be inappropriately sexual.
Round and round we go!
I'm not going to say that the problem is entirely in *our* heads and not in *their* heads. I think, if anything, the Tannese are a lot more screwed up on all kinds of odd fronts in granting "The Other" basic rights and respect, coming so recently from that history of displacing and stomping on the Sek-bloods, and even more recently, the general "conservative" recoil back toward it which Manoloki took advantage of.
I may not be allowing for just how screwed-up Naga would be about himself, as a native trying to function in a colonial (not even post-colonial) power such as the Tannese court. They aren't nearly to the point of "black is beautiful" stage of reclaiming self-respect against exterior demeaning experiences. It would be dangerous and often humiliating to live in the Sekblood community, unless you'd become very powerful indeed.
Naga has graduated far somewhere past the point of being the baddest gang pachuco on the block, somewhere to being the godfather or something; but he'd still be very aware of threats, and how to handle them with the least effort. *Any* questions about his personal life are a huge threat. Asking him what kind of womanly attributes he looks at--not even approaching the question of what kind of woman servant to send him at parties, or what his wife is like--is disrespecting him. They'd expect him to be insulted that anybody was questioning any aspect of his personal life. The Sek are very familiar with the rules for authority figures: If he wants them to know, he'll tell them. If he didn't tell them, it's none of their bidness.
This would be very familiar turf, after dealing with Nandos all his life.
I mean, if you imagine catching Naga in a more ghetto aspect, coming from a refugee-camp, Nando sort of mood, then it's an instant incitement to start a fight, demanding that he prove himself, stand up to defend his machismo. The best answer would be a total deflating joke about the challenger's lack of same, which gets the rest of the gang laughing, and then agreeing. He's got to have become very good at deflecting stupid young "gunslingers" challenging him to fights, without totally destroying their egos--earning their respect enough to come round and enlist on his side. They could be part of his army, if he handles them right.
At a more Tannese noble level, it's still an insult to demand some kind of answer of him, as if he can't be trusted to do the right thing about it. That's a serious insult to his honor, and that's all he's got. And he'd still have to be really good at deflecting those kins of glove-smacking duel challenges.
Then there's a quality of self-respect that's hard to quantify.
They are so much of their setting that I'm having trouble translating them into contemporary terms, into examples that seem current.
But imagine yourself *asking* either man, point blank, if they're lovers.
Blink.
Erm, no.
In a similar power structure in our society, the only people asking that woul be trying to tear down their authority and suggest failings (such as Caladrunan's unwise poisouns cousin, or Keth Adcrag's buddies), and of course it would have to be smacked down pretty briskly.
(Okay, the only known character I can think of who'd *do* it is Great-Aunt Agtunki, and she kind of already did that. She was left to imagine whatever she already thought, which pleases her just fine, and *that* preserves domestic peace a little better. Sneaky man, Caladrunan.)
I can imagine certain sorts of nobodies might ask it, horrifying everybody around--the potwasher or the tanner's kid who asks about gossip, asks things everybody wants to know, but nobody else would dare speak up to say.
The results for them would be unexpectedly massive, of course.
"You are in for *such* a beating, what your father will say I can't think, don't you ever do that again, I'm just so sick I can't tell you, and I don't care *what* nice man gave you a jade chip to ask that horrid question, you don't dare take that to market, for all we know it was stolen and we're all going to be arrested for thieving, you just gave that jade chip over to the Lord's people to look at all they liked and you know they think it was stolen! You and your big mouth! You know the Lord didn't have to promise that we wouldn't be taken off to jail for insulting him--what if he'd taken offense? You don't know what it was like in the old days, you know he could do anything he liked about it! Anything! And then you couldn't even tell them a thing about who gave you that jade chip, don't you pay any attention when people tell you things?"
It's enough to make you feel sorry for the poor family...
There might also be a question like that from the kind of bluff outspoken undiplomatic sort of authority, a Hold lord perhaps, who'd ask it during local visits. Probably not bluntly during meetings at Fortress, among other people of his own rank, but that depends more on the person's own level of unpolitic and even autistic-like bluntness, as well as depending on what's publicly acceptable. You can see fellow Hold lords all wincing from here...
In both those cases, I can see Caladrunan coming out with something really funny and charming, acknowledging their curiousity without granting that they have any right to ask, noting some of the ladies' flattering comments about Naga that have been floating round in the general gossip (to which they all get a general Teot glare that amuses everybody) along with the gentle suggestion that perhaps Naga's own preferences might not be along any of those lines at all, since he does have ties and obligations among his own people.
And he could anticipate a blistering Teot earful later, I'm sure...
There's the simple notion that Naga's obviously the kind of guy who thinks it's nobody's bidness but his. Too many people already know what's going on, or not, and it's nobody else's business what either of them are doing.
Defending his pivacy is hard enough in the village atmosphere already! Pitar and the guards and the spymaster and a whole bunch of other folks already know about it, probably in excruciating detail, and if you can't trust them, who can you trust to do the right thing? And who else needs to know? (It's not like you're going to be able to hide your affairs from the Secret Service, or the laundry ladies.)
Naga himself might be confronted with blunt questions far more often than Caladrunan is. He might crack a joke about being asked--and you could see him using some performance at Nella's to dispel this kind of gossip, once he learns of it--with a joke that carries the clear message that it's nobody else's business. Even if he was being asked to do things he absolutely hates, it's *still* nobody else's business. He might set up the joke to look at first like he's talking about going to bed with his boss, but break it that he's actually talking about how the Great Oath requires him to be polite at diplomatic parties and allow Caladrunan eat fish paste dainties, Despite The Risks. Who knows, maybe a hostess or three will take the point that the royals don't want to have fish paste thrust upon them!
Which doesn't answer the question at all, you notice.
There's also all kinds of racist stereotypes that have to be beat down if you want to say they're queer. It's too appropriate, given the colonial overlord history of the Tannese themselves. That threat might have to be addressed in the joking, too. Some guys would find it humiliating that it even comes up, that anybody could even *think* they were gay. I mean, on top of being shorter and slighter than everybody else, it's just too much! This evokes the old racism idea here that small Asian guys are all queer, particularly compared to the big buff blonde Tannese. But suggesting somebody is queer is the same as unthreatening and powerless has been used a lot as yet another way of emasculating your underlings--and yet also contradictorily making them into a looming threat.
Suggesting that Naga is totally straight but in love with Girdeth instead, just causes other problems. Quite a few of Oaur Felloah Amehrakinz would be deeply offended at the idea that Naga might lust after Caladrunan's sister Girdeth, or vice versa.
This threat of miscegenation would also bother the Tannese a lot. Naga might think that it should be addressed in some joking too.
The delicate part would be to suggest that while big leggy blondes are all very well, it isn't exactly to his taste, without saying demeaning or insulting things about all of them, and about her in particular. It might backfire if he attempts it via a fairly standard, "You know, I hate to break it to ya, but not everybody thinks you bossy Tannese are the greatest thing since the Conquest."
I'm not sure if a reversal would work, but perhaps he might praise her extravangantly, so they start getting nervous, and then do some contrast with himself, so he makes it clear that being around so much splendor doesn't exactly make him feel relaxed and compentent and sexy and ready to jump her bones. But that might be a little too bluntly addressing the fact he can *have* desires.
He might have to start off by saying he's uncomfortable when people just suggest he can have any desires at all (he's tiiiired!) let alone speculating who he lusts after. That'd be playing the much put-upon native who doesn't *need* any more big hairy problems thrown on his plate.
For the Tannese, such performances might be pretty edgy, pretty topical, pretty advanced, something like listening to a Sekblood farce performer using material that's tailored more for their own people out on the street, practicing before they ever get inside the pleasure houses, instead of bowdlerized for the rich Tannese nobles inside the house.
Naga wouldn't make a comfortable comic for them, that's for sure. I do like the idea of showing him at work in a performance, addressing some of these jokes. I think I've even got a decent place to add them in, which would actually make one rough transition work a little better, fairly deep into the current structure of the book. (It might end up in a part 2 type of deal.)
But that doesn't address those questions in the first part!
I'm just not entirely sure about my ability to construct jokes that will appear to do all that *both* the Tannese fictional audience, and for the readers who are getting a "translation" of it.
And finally, there's the impatient reader question. They want an answer to this one, one way or the other, and playing delicate "have it your own way" games isn't going to satisfy them, either.
Curt said:
I'll say one thing for you Heather, you sure don't skimp on answering questions!
I've been trying to think about how I would feel if Drin was a Queen instead of a King (i.e., is my "cheapening" comment about homosexuality or not). I think I would feel the same way, but I can't say for sure. I kind of like the idea that two men could be intimate without sexuality (intimacy is an important issue for me). Anyway, it may be best for you to leave readers guessing!
To which I said:
Hee!
So you really wanted to read all thaaaaat muuuuch, right?
Sigh.
...I also think it doesn't begin to address the difficulties and taboos and huge headaches that I went into some detail about while talking to you.
And dancing between the two, refusing to answer the question, doesn't cut it either!
Then I thought about it some more, and replied further:
I like your comment here about whether it would still apply if the ruler were a Queen instead--and yes, I think a lot of the same concerns would apply, if anything, even more so. [later note: The power concerns would be even greater.]
Think of some of the comments made about Queen Victoria and her "inappropriate" servants, later in life after Albert had died.
...Also, thank you *very* much for pasting my Practchett comments over there on the Pratchett forum, extremely helpful!!--and yes, I hared off doing other things somewhere around then.
A big thankyou-kissy icon would be well-deserved!
Perseverance is more prevailing than violence; and many things which cannot be overcome when they are together, yield themselves up when taken little by little.
---Plutarch
