The Jesus Family Tomb: Book & Film {Pre-Release Discussion}

[Darb]

According to what I've seen so far, from some of the people involved: "Non-fiction, based on real archeological evidence".

[DocKurtz]

That's kinda what I thought as well. I'd have to agree with all the others here that have noted ... we're in for a wild ride. It could rank right up there with discovering the world really wasn't flat after all.

Whether you are a believer or not (of whatever flavor) most of us have been exposed to 'faith' which basically asserts belief in something with no facts to back it up. Over the years - especially the last several decades as science has progressed - this has become not only a belief in something with no facts to back it up, but also despite facts to the contrary. This could\would be another of those cases.

I have been a Christian my whole life. I am also a scientist by degree (Biology\Chemistry). I KNOW dinosaurs existed - the last 100 years of archeology have proven this. I also KNOW that both my Catholic and Lutheran upbringing do not adequately address this (if dinosaurs existed then the earth is much older than the Bible says). I have been able to - over the years - determine what the REAL (to me anyway) faith pieces of Christianity are and what ones are explanations made up by men to try to answer questions they have no real answer to (the world is flat, the earth is the center of the universe, etc were all man made answers - God never declared that). In quite the same way - as some Gnostic writings have recently shown - there are many things about the life of Jesus that have become matters of faith (Jesus had no wife\children, Mary ascended bodily) which may very well be creations of man rather than God ... and like the dinosaurs will be put to the test.

Luckily for me - as I try to answer my children's questions about this stuff - the answers are quite simple. God made A promise and kept it. All the other stuff explains why and how ... and humans - since the time of Eve and the fruit - have been too curious and stubborn to just accept what is.

For the second time in a week I'm going to write that I'm excited to have THIS forum to discuss this in as I know the mods and people here will allow and support good natured and intelligent discussions.

-Doc

[Darb]

DocKurtz: Cogent & well mannered commentary, pro or con, is always welcome here. Glad to have you aboard.

[Mr. Titanic]

Docurtz: Those are some excellent points. I like that you have a "we'll wait and see" attitude about the subject, especially since I do as well. I'm interested in what the find has to offer. Touching on the idea that faith is trusting something without facts, I do agree with that statement, and what is odd at times is that facts are available. Though, these answers, so to speak, only lead to more questions. And so the one true answer essentially still eludes us. I've been known to think that as long as science continues to increase in sophistication, so will the complexity of these questions, but the thrill of the chase despite that never dies off.

Regarding your ideas about the dinosaurs, I've often wondered about them myself. A common question I use to ask myself was why God destroyed them - something he must have created. I came to the conclusion that he intended to create a being capable of reason that he could love, and with dinosaurs present it simply wasn't possible. Another idea is creation through evolution, in which God created the materials needed to make life, and altered it eventually to produce what we are now. Either way, that isn't a significant issue for me (evolution and dinosaurs) I dare say.

The age of the earth and othe such subjects.. ehh. I never gave much attention to the Old Testement. It just never meant too much to me personally. Some of it isn't nessesarily compatible with my idea of God and such, and so I just gathered my own general conclusions, such as God creating Earth and the heavens, good and evil and consequences for example, and ignored the specifics in some cases. My focus is centered around Jesus, the New testament and God according to his teachings. I have no doubts form that point on.

[mccormack44]

Probably a better place for the rest of this discussion would be "Faith and Inquiry" in the Soapbox (you have to opt in to be admitted there). Discussing the specifics of Pelligrino's work and its impact on society HERE and what we feel about faith THERE?

I know that the above posts are about both - and that's OK because we all think in convoluted twists here. I just thought the ideas about faith looked like they might grow, and I thought the moderators would be happier if they grew in the other topic.

That above having been said, I will add my take on faith at this point (but answers should be in the other topic.)

Faith is right-brained. Right brain and left brain CAN be trained to work together; most creative people have done some of this training. But many, many people seem to resent the idea of combining the two. In the minds of these people EVERYTHING should be right-brained (taken on faith) or left-brained (subject only to logic). I'm sorry people, but our brains don't work that way.

And IF you are a person who believes that you are God's creation, then you are denying God's work when you refuse to use half your brain and/or refuse to try to train the two halves to work together. I don't know why God created the two types of brain, but I do believe that he did do so, and that I am a poor steward if I fail to try to use both halves.

NUFF said — I'll see you in the soapbox if you have any replies to this.

Sue

[Mr. Titanic]

M44: I really enjoyed the points you brought to the discussion, as well as your analysis (and unique, to me at least) mention of the two sided brain logic. However, I don't find it necessary to divide the discussion. Had this thread been entirely about Jesus and religion, then I would have suggested it be merged in the soapbox. However, since it pertains to a discovery that inevitably leads to such discussion, I find it adequate that it remain in the thread, especially since many of the replies have kept Dr. Pellegrino's archeological find in mind. Directing others to the soapbox thread is a good idea either way, because more content on the religious topic is available there, but as far as checking two locations, I think it unnecessary.

[Darb]

As mentioned in this prior thread, it sounds like there will be a Discovery Channel special that will be aired concurrently with the release of the book.

[ruejacobs]

this books on my wish list, sugarplums!!!

[Mr. Titanic]

Ruejacobs, welcome back! Its too bad this book didn't come out in time for Christmas too, I wonder how that would have effected sales?

Anyway, that is an interesting new avatar, is it you? Regardless, do you mind perhaps limiting its size to something like 150 X 150 pixels? Those are suitable dimensions that won't disfigure the page. Thanks, its nice to have more people on the forum reading this book, and get more opinions on the material from all sorts of unique individuals.

[JonLevi]

It's great finding a forum on Pellegrino's next book and following the posts all the way to its end and all the esoterica dug up going any which way! Let's stay focussed before we go willy-nilly into in reality distortion field. I think it's fantastic when you have an author respond directly online as has been quoted and to keep the discussion on sight. Archeaology and anthropology exists for those who have the fortitude to get down and dirty in the dirt and try to discern the story behind the finds they have in their hands and give credit to those who try to put the pieces together and the many different stories and theories that come out of it. And Charles's books have given many adventures and avenues to explore. Who knows, a guy like Charles Pellegrino two thousand years from now will come across the GI Joe doll in a time capsule I buried 30 years ago and try to discern the story of the kid who buried it in the first place. I certainly hope he can! Let's think about the very human ritual of burial in the first place (such as the subject of the upcoming book, Jesus Family Tomb). The idea is for reverence and to serve the memory of those local in time and place? Yes, No? How about to serve the memory for thousands of years hence in time such as us here and now? What purpose does it serve if it disintegrates in nothingness? Then we would have lost? That's where we come in and individuals like Charles Pellegrino (granted he's not the only archeologist and/or scientist) comes in. I only wish I can have his adventures! Me? Do I want to be buried? Nah, cremate me or better yet, bury me dead in a pile of hot ash.

JonLevi

[tollbaby]

Welcome JonLevi Enjoy perusing the other threads in the forum. Eventually, we hope that Dr. Pellegrino himself will be posting (you know, if he ever slows down long enough). For now, you can post questions or comments to him and the moderators of this forum will forward them to him for reply. I hope you also feel free to explore the rest of the book forum and varied threads!

[Mr. Titanic]

Hello JonLevi and welcome to Dr. Pellegrino's discussion forum.

You mentioned something interesting in your post regarding the human burial ritual that reminds me of something I once read in Dr. Pellegrino's "Unearthing Atlantis." In the book, he was discussing how the Neanderthal man's bones in Iran indicate a more civilized picture of the creature itself. A man who had lost the use of an arm and a leg to arthritis was cared for by someone for several years before his death. At the burial site, crafted tools, charred bones (roasted meat) and blobs of pollen (flowers) were found near the body which was laid as if death were some sort of sleep. It was provided with food and tools, even in death. This reminds me of the Egyptian pyramid burials, and how Pharaohs would be placed with all their ornate belongings, their preserved body and food offerings within the tomb for use in the afterlife. But something about the Neanderthal burial is different. The man wasn't worshiped as a god, and he certainly predated the Egyptians. He was just someone that another must have cared about ... and grieved for.

[Darb]

Hello JonLevi and welcome to Dr. Pellegrino's discussion forum.

You mentioned something interesting in your post regarding the human burial ritual that reminds me of something I once read in Dr. Pellegrino's "Unearthing Atlantis." In the book, he was discussing how the Neanderthal man's bones in Iran indicate a more civilized picture of the creature itself. A man who had lost the use of an arm and a leg to arthritis was cared for by someone for several years before his death. At the burial site, crafted tools, charred bones (roasted meat) and blobs of pollen (flowers) were found near the body which was laid as if death were some sort of sleep. It was provided with food and tools, even in death. This reminds me of the Egyptian pyramid burials, and how Pharaohs would be placed with all their ornate belongings, their preserved body and food offerings within the tomb for use in the afterlife. But something about the Neanderthal burial is different. The man wasn't worshiped as a god, and he certainly predated the Egyptians. He was just someone that another must have cared about ... and grieved for.

MrT: I really think you'd like John Campbell. Archeology, both physical and literary, is one of the cornerstones of his work in the field of comparative religion. Funerary practices in particular are an important window on a group/society's mannerisms regarding civilized conduct (connections with their fellows) and their faith/belief systems (connection with the unknown/unknowable).

As for my own parents: they told me they wanted to be cremated and scattered together. It was my job to carry out their wishes. They loved sailboat racing, so when they were both finally gone, my family brought them out on a boat to the place they always ran their races for so many years, sounded the start of an imaginary race on the horn, and scattered them on the waters, so they could sail the hearafter ... and yet still be close to home. As in life, so in death, and on for eternity. In a strange way, in hindsight, it was more buddhist and shinto, than it was episcopal ... but I know for a fact they'd love it.

[Mr. Titanic]

MrT: I really think you'd like John Campbell. Archeology, both physical and literary, is one of the cornerstones of his work in the field of comparative religion. Funerary practices in particular are an important window on a group/society's mannerisms regarding civilized conduct (connections with their fellows) and their faith/belief systems (connection with the unknown/unknowable).

As for my own parents: they told me they wanted to be cremated and scattered together. It was my job to carry out their wishes. They loved sailboat racing, so when they were both finally gone, my family brought them out on a boat to the place they always ran their races for so many years, sounded the start of an imaginary race on the horn, and scattered them on the waters, so they could sail the hearafter ... and yet still be close to home. As in life, so in death, and on for eternity. In a strange way, in hindsight, it was more buddhist and shinto, than it was episcopal ... but I know for a fact they'd love it.

Very well stated regarding the logic of civilization, Brad. Yes, I seem to recall you once suggesting that author to me before. I should look into reading one of his books, preferably when I'm not required to read certain books for my English course. ( ) The only problem there is that Joseph Campbell has written nearly forty books, which is quite a few by my standards. I'm not too sure where to begin looking. Is there a specific book you have in mind that I may enjoy? I'd rather not take a stab in the dark and choose any book off the list to start with, since some appear to be a series. Though, I did the same thing with Dr. Pellegrino after all... and that didn't turn out nearly so negative.

I have mixed feelings about cremation personally, but I don't really give the fate of my body after death too much thought. It just seems insignificant. However, I find that your care in giving what you did with your parent's ashes some thought is what really meant most. It probably means more to them than what actually became of the remains, since they know someone loved them enough to give their final wishes such deep and personal thought. At least, that is what would have mattered to me. For the most part, I've derived my feelings about death from the Titanic itself, and how its spirit lives on nearly one hundred years after the incident, and how one couldn't say the same for its vessel. In that sense, what you did with your parents kept their spirit alive by giving them a place to be... your memory or even heart. I guess in cases, the Neanderthal and even the modern man (yourself), that same idea of immortality through death is evident.

Now, I attempt not to sound so emotional, but it happens.

[Darb]

You can probably rent Bill Moyer's PBS interview with J.J. Campbell {re: "The Power of Myth"} from your local video store .... that'd give you a good overview of the sort of scholar/thinker he was. However, if your preferred focus is more judeo-christian, he's written some books on that paradigm as well.

If while skimming his works in our database you see votes, chances are good that the first of each encountered were mine.

If time permitted me, I'd read everything JJC's ever written ... but sadly, my freetime is precious and rare of late. I really need to get some Emerson into my system.

[Darb]

{snip}

There will be a major press conference next Monday. The program about the tomb will be airing March 4. The book will be released to the public next Monday.

[wolfspirit]

{snip}

There will be a major press conference next Monday. The program about the tomb will be airing March 4. The book will be released to the public next Monday.

There was a segment on the local news today about how this was a major find, and there will be a press conference on it today

Looks like the news is spreading wide and quickly.

I saw it, looked at the parental units, and went "Yo! I know about this!" Possibly one of the few times I knew about what the news was talking about before I saw the news.

Scott

EDIT: On top of that, while the actual article is not put up yet, there is a comment form on the news station website for "News at 4: Your thoughts on the Jesus Family Tomb"

http://www.nbc10.com/more/index.html?dl_trayclick (look at the envelope icon toward the bottom of the All That & More frame)

[wolfspirit]

And even more news stuffs (if different articles come up over the next few days, I'll edit my post, or other mods can feel free to add to my post):

Jesus Family Tomb Believed Found - Discovery Channel News (Feb 25th 2007)
Jesus tomb claim sparks furor - Toronto Star (Feb 26, 2007 04:30 AM, according to the article)
Discovery Channel Website for the Jesus Family Tomb

Scott

[Zomboy]

check out this Discovery Channel link: Jesus Family Tomb Believed Found

Shortened URL so it didn't stretch the page - wolfspirit

[wolfspirit]

I'm trying to watch the webcast, however the server seems to be really, really overloaded. Thankfully, I'm still getting the audio, and it really interesting so far.

Scott

[Ghost]

I was driving and listening to the radio today and . . . surprize . . . a Phoenix talk show host was talking about the discovery and what he thought about. I don’t know how much about the discovery is out as of yet and how much the talk show host has factually seen / read, but this was the summary of what he was saying:

[quote]He gave a little history lesson on the translation of the name “Jesusâ€

[ed_the_engineer]

> So was the family “Tomb of Jesus and Maryâ€

[wolfspirit]

Just for amusement as to how far off the local media can get sometimes, I was watching the news, and they said that "Tombs have been found with the names Jesus and the Virgin Mary inscribed in them." I was destinctly like WTF? I highly doubt the one was inscribed "The Virgin Mary," and if it was,I kinda doubt that scientists would believe it was the real thing

Ghost, according to the pieces of the webcast that I was able to watch (it started out fine, then got choppier and choppier until it cut out about 45 minutes into it), I believe it was “Tomb of Yeshua and Miryām" that was discovered. I have no idea how to translate the funky thing above the a into spoken words, but the name mentioned continually was not mary.

Scott

[Mr. Titanic]

You know Wolfspirit, that remainds me of those cartoons when a character is searching for treasure and as they search a great neon sign with blinking lights points to an "X" on the ground blinking "TREASURE!"

The press conference essentially goes into some detail regarding the exact naming and also mentions a few sources and even some theories relating to the finds and their conclusions. I suggest that anyone seeking to get the facts through an accurate tone that comes directly from the sources themselves watch the conference. It helps with interpreting the information when one receives an explination prior to diving into the material, providing it is such a contraversial subject. I'm grateful to have been preparted to embrace this.

I also appreciated several ideas expressed such as the idea that Jesus was full God and full Human, and his corpse can be thought of as a testement to the latter concept. The main hindrance to the hypothesis that we have indeed found Jesus would be examples such as Thomas in which Jesus displayed his wounds for Thomas to touch. However, I'm under the impression that Jesus had the properties, upon ressurection of a spirit and a body, capable for reasons such as dissipating doubt to shift between the two using his power. The spirit ultimately representing his imoratility as God and his body an eternal reminder of the sacrafice.

I'm curious about several things though. If the disiples buried Jesus why wouldn't he be described as the Son of God as opposed to that of Joeseph. I wonder who actually buried him, I don' tthink it was them.

Also, was there a link to Joesph's DNA and Jesus' DNA, as if Joesph were the father?

The questions I have go longer than Santa's naughty list but I can remember asking myself those two. Anyhow, I'll contribute a better reply when the horrors of testing terminate.

[laurie]

I'm curious about several things though. If the disiples buried Jesus why wouldn't he be described as the Son of God as opposed to that of Joeseph. I wonder who actually buried him, I don' tthink it was them.

It wouldn't have been the disciples - they were in hiding, except for John who was with Mary at Calvary. My guess would be that John and Mary buried Jesus where Joseph had been buried, and later John buried Mary at the same place.

As for the "Son of Joseph" part, wouldn't they have tried to hide Jesus' true identity so his grave couldn't be located by anyone but those who already knew where it was? Remember, he was persona non grata to a lot of important religious and government people, not to mention all those who had followed him and then turned against him when he was arrested.

I would bet that until all of them had died, the only name on that grave - if there was any name at all - was Joseph's. And when the names were finally put on, they were made to look like a typical family buried together so the grave wouldn't attract any adverse attention.