Cydonia: Ancient ET Architecture or mere Geological Oddity ?

[ufojoe]

Could cydonia be the real thing ? It's an extremely distant remote possibility ... but highly unlikely to be the case in this instance.

I'd take the claim (an extraterrestrial civilization existed on Mars) to be an extraordinary one, and therefore it requires extraordinary evidence, and a shadowy picture from 1970s tech isn't it. However, the Mars Global Surveyor's high-resolution pictures put this claim to bed as far as I'm concerned, check them out here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydonia_%28Mars%29

As I've said before, there's a hell of a lot more up there than The Face.
And to me, the MGS photos only added to the intrigue. Nothing was
put to bed IMO.

And Brad, I don't try to appear skeptical for appearances sake or to just debate. That's a waste of time, IMO. I think the evidence for artificial objects on Mars is compelling. But until we go there, we can't tell for sure. So, I have my doubts.

There's an underwater pyramid-like structure off the coast of Japan. Scientists went scuba diving to look at the structure up close. Some of the scientists said it was natural and some said artificial. So, there were differences of opinion. And that's on a structure that they can actually touch! So, I can't expect to know for sure about Cydonia until we go there.
But I'd still like more photos and measurements in the meantime.

So, ed/engineer, why is it such an extraordinary claim that there are artificial objects on Mars? If Mars has evidence of flowing water today and had oceans of water in her past and was possibly Earth-like, why is it an extraordinary claim?

[Darb]

I think the evidence for artificial objects on Mars is compelling. But until we go there, we can't tell for sure. So, I have my doubts.

I think we disagree regarding what constitutes "compelling". I see something curious, but not especially compelling, in the cydonian mesa. I don't really have much more to add on that count.

ED: Yeah, I remember Asimov's citation of the drake equation in his "Extra Terrestrial Civilizations" book. The chief flaw of SETI is that communication (as best we know/theorize) is limited by the speed of light, and therefore the very best that the SETI project can hope to accomplish, in it's present form, is to posibly identify signs of a civilization long dead ... that in itself would be extraordinary, but the numbers and distances and sensitivity capabilities, and the signal strength required to overcome the problems of the inverse square law on distance against background noise ... taken together with the drake equation, and the time required to cover said distances, the chances of success devolve to the nearly absurd.

[ufojoe]

So, if we find out that Mars was like Earth in her past, would that
change anybodies' opinion on the possibility of Mars being home
to intelligent life at some point in the distant past? Would you
look at the Cydonian evidence in a different light? Could a
planet-wide disaster have wiped out said life on Mars?

To me, it's just not an outlandish or extraordinary hypothesis.
IF Mars was Earth-like, then something had to happen for it
to be like it is today.

If there was a civilization there, the remnants could be buried
under the Martian sand. Similar to how the Sphinx was in Giza
when it was first discovered.



* * * * *

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1103

Vast ice deposits on Martian south pole

Friday, 16 March 2007

Agençe France-Presse

Vast ice deposits on Martian south pole

The south pole of Mars, captured here by NASA, is packed with frozen water deposits.

Image: NASA

WASHINGTON: Huge deposits of pure frozen water have been found under the southern pole of Mars, following a probe by the European spacecraft Mars Express.

The deposits are so vast that if the ice was to melt completely it would cover the entire Red Planet to a depth of 11 metres.

"While the precise composition of the deposits is unknown, it is believed they are predominantly water ice and that they represent the largest known reservoir of H2O on the planet," said the study that reported the find, published today in the U.S. journal Science.

Researchers used signals sent by one of Mars Express' instruments, the Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface Ionospheric Sounding (Marsis), which penetrated some 3.7 kilometres below the planet's surface, to make their calculations.

"We apply a technique commonly used to study the interior of ice sheeets and glaciers on Earth, radar echo sounding, to study the south pole layered deposits of Mars," added the study's authors.

The same instruments were used in November 2005 to detect underground water for the first time on the planet - that time at the north pole.

Earlier this month scientists said in a study published in British journal Nature that they had found evidence that Mars was once latticed by a complex underground water system (see Mars once riddled with deep water, Cosmos Online) proving the planet has had a long and complex relationship with what is thought to be a key ingredient for life.

Today, Mars - which like Earth was formed some 4.6 billion years ago - is bone dry, its thin atmosphere almost entirely bereft of water.

But most experts now agree that the planet was once covered with seas and a balmy, Earth-like atmosphere, fueling speculation that it could have harboured some form of life, even bacterial.

Even more tantalizing, in the light of the Nature study, is recent evidence presented by NASA scientists that some water is still flowing along the surface of Mars, presumably from underground sources.

Pictures taken by the U.S. space agency's Mars Global Surveyor orbiter detected two gullies that the scientists said could only have been created by a flow of liquid. The gullies had not existed when the region was photographed previously.

Water is one of three essential ingredients for life as we know it, along with energy, such as sunlight, and elements like carbon and oxygen.

[tollbaby]

well, I can see one problem with your assumption...

"While the precise composition of the deposits is unknown, it is believed they are predominantly water ice and that they represent the largest known reservoir of H2O on the planet," said the study that reported the find, published today in the U.S. journal Science.

It is believed, in scientific reports, to me says "We haven't got a clue, but it's a good guess". There's also the fact that they state later on that there may have been life, EVEN BACTERIAL. Woah. Bacteria are renowned for building INCREDIBLE monuments and cities.

I just think it may be jumping the gun a bit to assume that intelligent life was once just a short space jump away. I mean, we'd have seen ruins or *something* by now.

[ufojoe]

well, I can see one problem with your assumption...

"While the precise composition of the deposits is unknown, it is believed they are predominantly water ice and that they represent the largest known reservoir of H2O on the planet," said the study that reported the find, published today in the U.S. journal Science.

It is believed, in scientific reports, to me says "We haven't got a clue, but it's a good guess". There's also the fact that they state later on that there may have been life, EVEN BACTERIAL. Woah. Bacteria are renowned for building INCREDIBLE monuments and cities.

I just think it may be jumping the gun a bit to assume that intelligent life was once just a short space jump away. I mean, we'd have seen ruins or *something* by now.

You didn't answer my question. If it is proven that Mars was once like Earth, would it change your thinking on the POSSIBILITY/ODDS of artifacts leftover from a distant civilization?

And IMO, it's possible that some ruins are visible, jutting out of the sand.
But the rest would be buried.

[tollbaby]

if it's possible that some ruins are visible, why can't we see them? IF it was proven that Mars was once like Earth, i.e. with the rich plant life and variety in habitats our planet boasts, then MAYBE i'd be convinced. But so far, they think that MAYBE some bacteria lived there in the distant past. That's a far cry from saying that Mars was like Earth. That discounts vertebrated species, it discounts plant species, it even discounts algae, for pete's sake. How "like Earth" could it have been if a few bacteria maybe lived there millions of years ago?

Sorry, not even close to being convinced that it's possible at this point.

[ufojoe]

Like I said, there ARE things there that a few dozen (35 or so) scientists, academics and other independent researchers think may be artificial. I've linked the site that features their work. Some of it is peer reviewed.

It's not just crazy folks like me that think there's something up there.

If Earth was hit by a huge asteroid that killed all life on the planet, what would our planet look like from above in a few hundred thousand years? Would there be obvious signs of our civilization?

Just throwing out some conversation.

List of people interested in the Cydonia region.

Mr. Vincent DiPietro - cydonia@erols.com - a senior systems engineer, now retired worked as a contractor at Goddard Space Flight Center for twenty-three years. Although without a formal college degree, he has attained a level of engineering Associate by participating in an Engineering course curricula at Johns Hopkins University and the University of Maryland. Mr. DiPietro has designed, built, and delivered several electronic hardware packages for use in Image Processing equipment at Goddard Space Center. These packages have been used in support of the Landsat MSS and RBV programs and the NIMBUS CZCS programs. His knowledge of image processing has been useful in performing the analysis of the VIKING MARS data. Having a background of image processing techniques, Mr. DiPietro has performed his independent image enhancements of selected VIKING data sets using digital tapes as the source. Several processes are demonstrated in the image analysis study that he has prepared, including one of his own invention known as Starburst Pixel Interleaving Technique (SPIT). The digital image processes were used in the preparation of 35mm. slides mostly over the Cydonia region of Mars where some interesting observations were made. The enhancements have revealed detail in an object of controversy - the FACE on MARS.The detail does not manifest itself clearly in the original archival photos, but is clearly seen in the slides. Mr. DiPietro and his associates have self published a full description of this work in a book entitled "Unusual Mars Surface Features - fourth edition".

Mr. Greg Molenaar

Dr. John E. Brandenburg - Co-author, with DiPietro & Molenaar, of the fourth edition of Unusual Mars Surface Features. Plasma Physicist working primarily on the theory of magnetic confinement of plasmas for fusion power and defense-related areas of plasma physics. Unified Field Theories. Coauthor with Monica Paxton on book Dead Mars - Dying Earth.

Position statement: "The objects in Cydonia appear to be heavily eroded, which makes interpretation difficult, however, this erosion is consistent with the Cydonian Hypothesis, which dates them from a period of earthlike climate on Mars, and also similar to the condition of ancient earth archeology. In the Cydonian Hypothesis, published in 1990, it was predicted that, despite erosion, new details suggesting archeological origin would be found, if the objects were in fact archeological. As is discussed in the book 'Dead Mars Dying Earth', such new details are in fact apparent. Therefore, given the totality of new Mars data, the Cydonian Hypothesis has gained ground. More images should be taken by the MGS in Cydonia, while it can still take them."

Dr. Randolfo Pozos

Dr. Mark J. Carlotto is an image scientist with more than 20 years of experience in satellite remote sensing and digital image processing. From 1972 to 1981 he studied optics, signal and image processing at Carnegie-Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania where he received B.S., M.S., and Ph. D. degrees in Electrical Engineering in 1977, 1979, and 1981.

Mr. Daniel Drasin - ddrasin@aol.com - Writer and Editor. Principal photographic consultant to the Independent Mars Investigations and the Society for Planetary SETI Research. 35-year background as photographer and award-winning cinematographer. Editor and photographic consultant for Dr. Mark J. Carlotto's *The Martian Enigmas* and editorial consultant for *The McDaniel Report.*

Position on the Martian Anomalies: I encourage the continued detailed examination of the primary anomalies at Cydonia. I also favor the high-resolution imaging of earlier extra cydonian discoveries including the Crater Pyramid, the String of Beads (known formerly as the "Runway") and the Radial Complex.

Mr. Erol Torun, Erol_Torun@yahoo.com

* B.S., Geography (subspecialty geomorphology), University of Maryland at College Park.
* Cartographer and physical scientist with the Defense Mapping Agency, Washington, D.C. since 1980.
* From 1980-86 worked on Digital Terrain Elevation Data, a matrix of elevation points to represent ground topology.
* Currently working in the area of Computer Systems procurement. He is the author of "The Geometry and Geomorphology of the D&M Pyramid."

Professor Stanley V. McDaniel (Founder -SPSR)

Dr. Horace Crater (President, SPSR) - hcrater@utsi.edu or hcrater@aol.com

* Ph.D. Yale University, 1968. Professor of physics at the University of Tennessee Space Institute.
* Member of the American Physical Society in The Division of Particles and Fields and Topical Group of Few Body Systems and Multi particle Dynamics.
* Graduate level teaching in the areas of Classical and Quantum Mechanics, Quantum Field Theory, and General Relativity among others.
* Fields of research: relativistic classical mechanics, relativistic quantum mechanics, quantum field theory, and meson spectroscopy and meson scattering.
* Author of more than 50 peer-reviewed articles on physics in scholarly journals, including Two-Body Dirac Equations - Annals of Physics, Relativistic Naive Quark Model for Spinning Quarks in Mesons - Physical Review Letters, Structure of Quantum Mechanical Relativistic Two-Body Interactions for Spinning Particles - Foundations of Physics.

Dr. David Webb (Vice-President, SPSR)
Dr. James F. Strange (Secretary, SPSR)
Dr. Tom Van Flandern
Dr. Michael Zimmerman
Dr. Conley Powell
Mr. James Erjavec
Mr. Ananda Sirisena

Dr. Brian O'leary - oleary1998@yahoo.com

* Ph. D Astronomy, The University of California - Berkely 1967
* NASA scientist-astronaut during the Apollo Program and was deputy team leader of the Mariner 10 Venus-Mercury television science team.

Dr. Mitchell Swartz
Mr. Lan Fleming
Dr.Alexey Arkhipov
Dr. Ken Wheaton
Mr. Harry Moore
Mr. Cesar Sirvent
Ms. Monica Paxson
Mr. Steve Corrick
Dr. Charles Walker
Mr. Peter P. Nerbun
Mr. Robert A. Johnston
Mr.David J Eccott
Mr. J.P. Levasseur
Mr. Malcolm Smith
Mr. Greg Orme
Mr. Peter Ness
Mr. Francis Ridge
Mr. Mac Tonnies

[Darb]

I'll try to get caught up on the flurry of posts since my last visit in a few days ... meanwhile, clong posted THIS link in a separate sub-fora. Enjoy.