The Internet Book Database of Fiction

Ok I've started making a basic system.
If anyone wants to throw in their two cents feel free, especially if it relates to a magic system.


[EDIT: changed title for clarity]

Are you going to go all out? White, Black, Green, and Grey?

The funny thing I've noticed about the magic system is that they often get the same thing done, only in different ways. I can tell you that D20 is probably not the way to go at all.

I've been entertaining the thought of 3 seperate spell lists for gray white and black.

White - causing aging of user and surroundings in large use (eg the whites couldn't keep wine around for long etc.)
Blacks - order blindness if spells end up causing chaos (intended or not) maybe having bonuses to defense and minuses to attacks as they further develope their powers.
Grays - being able to channel order through chaos thus avoiding the age effects and being able to use order magic for chaotic ends but having a less extensive list?

What would you suggest for green?
As for dice I hadn't given much thought to them in the magic department, but I had thought for the general system I would use d20 with an attribute and skills list.

Thanks for your 2 cents, hope to hear more.

I'm curious to know if Mr. Modesitt had ever thought about how he would classify order/chaos magic for a game?

I'd probably give people a trait that measured their control of order and chaos. You would also be able to hold a "mana pool" type thing of order or chaos (or possibly both - may cause problems for the character?).

Points from your chaos pool could be spent to increase the effect of any chaos spell (Jeslek could throw powerful firebolts with no warmup time) but would cause increased aging in the holder of the pool and - to a lesser extent - his surroundings.

Points from your order pool would slow down your aging, allow you to add to the effect of order spells (but with less effect than chaos points), increase your ability to resist chaos passively and increase the difficulty of any chaos spells you try.

People could use order or chaos skill to detect anyone with high order or chaos pools.

Then each spell would have order and/or chaos requirements. The spell to make a "green" would be a reasonably high level spell requiring order and chaos and would grant immunity to aging (and diseases and the like?) but would make any high level spell cast age you.

Blacks would take only order, Whites would take only chaos (maybe a little order for shielding), greys could take both and greens would be powerful greys who had used the spell to make them green...

Or something like that, anyway...

(I have to admit, the mage system could work fairly well, just replace Arete and spheres with Chaos and Order on a scale from 1 - 10 and devise appropriate rotes for each level...)

MatrimK wrote:I've been entertaining the thought of 3 seperate spell lists for gray white and black.

White - causing aging of user and surroundings in large use (eg the whites couldn't keep wine around for long etc.)
Blacks - order blindness if spells end up causing chaos (intended or not) maybe having bonuses to defense and minuses to attacks as they further develope their powers.
Grays - being able to channel order through chaos thus avoiding the age effects and being able to use order magic for chaotic ends but having a less extensive list?

my gaming group changed the basic magic system from d20 to one more like Magic: the Gathering (MtG)
the same thing could be applied to the order/chaos system...

basic chaos mage abilities include:
raise chaos- increases free chaos around user
shield- obvious, also invisibility and "blur" shield
firebolt- stronger ones take longer, do more damage, increase user's chaos "rating"
scree- once again, prolonged use increases chaos rating
detect chaos/ order

note on chaos/order ratings: similar to Knights of the Old Republic...doing things with/for chaos raises your chaos affinity, making it easier to do stuff with chaos, harder and more dangerous to be around order...
likewise, higher ordered people become more sensitive to chaos- i.e. headaches and nausea from lies, blindess/deafness from "backlash"

basic order "mage" abilities:
instill order- all order users tend to be constructive in some manner (woodworking/smithy/etc.) and they can "lock" the order into whatever they make
sense pattern: in the winds/ earth/ atomic structure (if youre Kharl)
shield- block/divert energy (light/ fire/ chaos)
heal- to some degree all of them can
detect chaos/order
night vision
defensive speed (like the Jedi effect...when fully on defensive almost impossible to touch them)

i know this was long and drawn out, but lets get this together, eh?

Separately to this thread I have been thinking about a Recluse RPG. my ideas follow (please be aware it may be a bit technical to non gamers)

first, the D20 combat system is no good because:

it is too easy to heal from and survive fights

combat is too prolonged (several rounds of combat per enemy)

non human enemies in the recluse saga (apart the few natural wild animals) are few and far between, but the D20 system is designed for fighting lots of different creatures, not for dealing with the subtleties of different combat styles (dual swords against shield and sword for example)

if I can suggest some systems to base it on, Alexander Scott's 'Maelstrom' (1984), and the RuneQuest systems are 1) more magic poor, 2) combat is more deadly and it takes longer to heal, and 3) much more fine-tuneable with regards to the noncombat and specialised combat (e.g. westwind style, firelance/sabre) skills



Most characters should not have acess to magic (despite all the main characters in the books being mages). I suggest this because a party of white mages is well nigh undefeatable)

If all mage parties are allowed I would suggest
1) an increased chaos (aging etc.) quotient for groups of whites/greys, and
2) greater order-chaos dichotomy lashbacks on groups of grays/blacks (since they all embody an amount of order, which in a group makes it harder to cause chaos)



As far as non-mages go, they could be dicided into three groups, each with thier own advantages and drawbacks

warriors (caravan guards, cyadoran lancers, marines)
advantages - strong on combat
disadvantages - living depends on fighting therefore lose out badly if crippled or killed

Traders (free traders, clan traders)
advantages - money, contacts
disadvantages (free traders) - if they lose a caravan/ship are in danger of losing livelihood
disadvantages (clan traders) - have to fulfill quotients of profit to remain in charge of caravans etc.

artisans (wood workers, blacksmiths) [NB - there is little reason for this group too join parties of other characters]
advantages - can make a living with little danger of death. probably develop skill and contacts not directly to do with job
disadvantages - hard to make a living on the move. vulnerable to attacks on workshops etc. [NB2 - travelling bards, acrobats etc. might come in here - they might be a good PC occupation]

The druids should be heavily discouraged as a PC class, as if they are available as a character, the rest will go unused because druids are so powerful.


magic due to order can include

light shield
order compulsions
forging black iron
absorbing/deflecting fiebolts
healing
sand(order) scrying (?)
truth sensing

magic due to chaos can include

blur shield
chaos compulsion
body stealing (for the VERY pwerful)
firebolts
LIMITED healing (VERY limited)
chaos scrying
truthsensing/disgusing

Disadvantages to order masters include

compulsion to tell WHOLE truth
aversion to death
aversion to edged implements
order-chos backlashes

disadvantages to chaos masters include

aging
ferric poisoning/weakness to iron

I think tilting the numbers so ordermasters are weaker than chaos masters at low levels, and vice versa at high levels will balance the two types of mages (I have not thought about greys)

I do have more to put down in writing but this is enough to start with[/list]

Sorry for being silent for so long. But okay, here's some of the stuff I've been putting together:

9 attributes falling into 3 categories, rating from 0-10.
Physical (strength, dexterity, constitution)
Mental (intelligence, wisdom, charisma)
Miscellaneous (luck, order, chaos)

The first 6 would be increased as you raise your skill's ranks, rating from 0-5. Combat, knowledge, skills, talents, etc. Health would be equal to the combination of your physical attributes with 0 resulting in unconsciousness and below 0 being death. Energy would then be your mental attributes with 0 resulting in fatigue or exhaustion perhaps and below in death.

Luck could be spent to reroll any die once, and you would gain luck by surviving particularly dangerous situations or working around bad luck.

Order or Chaos would increase through how you roleplayed your character. For each point you gained you could pick a feat, special ability, or spell (which would use the energy I mentioned earlier) related to which you received your point.

The skills would have key attributes from physical or mental categories which would add to your chance of sucess with that skill. I was thinking of using a d10 system for this since I thought the results from a d20 would be too inconsistent.

For combat the attacker and defender would roll opposed d10s adding their appropriate skill modifier. If successful the attacker would then roll location, damage, and "critical %." The defenders armour would reduce from the damage. The "critical %" would depend on the area, weapon used, and armour worn by the defender. Scoring a critical hit depending on the amount of damage and location could break, maim, lame, kill, or otherwise injure the defender.

I would like to thank everyone for their 2 cents so far and hope to hear more. I would especially like to hear maybe some examples of skills or feats/spells/etc. or if you have any suggestions to what is above.

Matrim

I don't think luck is very good for a world where the workings of causality are so strongly shown.

Kvetch, can you explain to me why the causality in the world would mean that luck is not present or appropriate? Do you mean causality in the sense that everything in any book happens for a reason and specific purposes? Or is there something specific about the Recluse series? Also can you give a situation or example which shows luck is not appropriate.

Also what did you think of the other material? And I should have a skills list ready soon, so any contributions there would be appreciated.

Okay here's the combat skills I came up with and their key attributes:

• Dodge - Dexterity | Axes - Strength | Parry - Wisdom | Hammers - Strength | Block - Constitution | Great Blades - Strength | Initiative - Wisdom | Knives - Dexterity | Grapple - Constitution | Marksmanship - Dexterity | Hand-to-Hand - Strength | Short Blades - Dexterity | Throw - Strength | Spears - Strength | Staves - Dexterity

If anyone can think of something I forgot or has a comment on anything I thought of just drop off a thought. I should have more skills tomorrow.

Matrim

Sorry, I know that wasn't clear. the recluse books all have a cleas causality - nothing EVER happens by accident, therefore I feel luck is inappropriate. however, on second thoughts, it could be useful as a roll playing device, to keep the players willing to do mildly heroic things (my gaming group *refuses* to do anything with the slightest hint of danger in it)

Here is the next installment, talents:

• Acrobatics - Dexterity | Animal Kin - Charisma | Balance - Dexterity | Climb - Constitution | Concentration - Constitituion | Intuit Direction - Wisdom | Jump - Strength | Listen - Wisdom | Run - Constitution | Scan - Wisdom | Search - Wisdom | Sense Motive - Wisdom | Sneak - Dexterity | Spot - Wisdom | Sprint - Strength | Subterfuge - Charisma | Swim - Constitution

Have any comments or ideas just let me know. I should have more skills real soon.

Matrim

Okay heres the next one, knowledges:

• Agriculture - Int | Alchemy - Int | Anatomy - Int | Appraisal - Wis | Architecture - Int | Astronomy - Int | Diplomacy - Cha | Engineering - Int | Geography - Int | Herbalore - Wis | Irrigation - Int | Meteorology - Int | Occult - Int | Pyrotechnics - Int | Scrivening - Int

I should have the last part in a few so drop any ideas in.

Matrim

Okay one quick addition to Talents, Singing with the Key Attribute of Charisma. Should have the last one coming later tonight or tomorrow morning.

If you see any missing skills or wrong key attributes post it up.

Matrim

Here is the last part:

• Animal Handling - Charisma | Bargaining - Charisma | Blacksmithing - Strength | Carpentry - Strength | Disguise - Charisma | Illustration - Dexterity | Innuendo - Charisma | Investigation - Wisdom | Lockpicking - Dexterity | Masonry - Constitution | Metalworking - Constitution | Mining - Constitution | Music - Charisma | Slight of Hand - Dexterity | Tailoring - Dexterity | Tracking - Wisdom | Wilderness Lore - Wisdom | Woodworking - Constitution

If anyone can think of something I missed or has a comment just let me know. Next I'm gonna start work on feats/special abilities/spells.

Matrim

in the context of recluse, what exactly is occult? pyrotechnics?

Occult would be the knowledge of stories, whether historical or mythical. For example Kharl hadn't heard about the ruins Cyador when he went Southport, which would indicate a low occult. Or how he was unaware of the cataclysm when Fairven fell. Or that the rubble in Lydiar was the stronghold of the Duke destroyed by Creslin.

Pyrotechnics is the skill or knowledge of fireworks or explosives or controlled use of fire (in the real world such as fire and explosions for rock concerts or movie sets.) So it could be used fo entertainment, or to make the rockets Recluse uses. Or possibly be used with chaos to set off powder in shells or even to measure a white wizards control with fire?

Let me know if you think this appropriate, and if not what would be better skill names for this. Thanks

Matrim

Pyrotechnics is good. I don't think occult is the right word, but I can't think what is.

Where magely characters are concerned I would suggest that the character breakdown be similar to this.
All mages have the ability to use order or chaos. Have the actual delineations (black, white, gray) evolve acording to the character's personlaity, actions, and usage of magic. Remember that the order/chaos forces themselves are neutral. They are simply forces that some have the ability to harness. It is the people and how they use the force that are evil.
**Note: Chaos tends to spawn more chaos (evil) wizards than order due to the destructive nature of chaos. It calls to those people that are easily self-deceived, and corruptable. Order wizards can be just as destructive and do things that too could be considered evil (this is a self correcting state though. Using order for destruction can so unbalance an order mage that he can lose his abilities or other senses.
The Cyadorean Mages were actually closer to grays in usage than most other white mages. Remember that Sammik was partly so powerful because he understood order. The Cyadorean Mages were familar with such and used it though they did not advertise it. I would think that grays be considered such only after they have reached the skill and experience needed to become balanced.
The mages themselves could have a secondary calling. Order mages are called to the crafts or healing and growing (productive things). Chaos mages could be called to those ways of life that are more corrupting( self oriented), stealing, merchant, administration/government, or armsman. This is not to say that an order mage could not be a soldier. Nylan, Justin, and the Black Order prove that such is possible.
On the subject of Druids ALL Druids are balanced. The Great Forrest assures such. This does not mean that if a gray achieves balance they are a Druid. It just means they are balanced.

This subject can get so deep into human nature that it is quite difficult to phrase concepts. If you have any specific questions please ask. Maybe such questions would allow me to project more coherance. thank you.

This all sounds quite interesting.

Too bad I've never played an RPG in my life

I disagree with your powers as based on actions L_T - the books say that some people are specifically unable to use chaos (not unable to use order though - you need order to direct the firebolts, act as shields)

my way of dealing with all this is:

I suggest character creation should be on a point-buy system, so high strength is offset by lower other scores etc.
characters would increase in power by gaining more points (possibly in addition to ordinary levels)

for magic the system would work like this:

to become a magus/wizard, at character creation the the player would have to put a large number of points into 'mage potential', which would allow manipulation of the chaos-order fields.

this would keep the number of mages low.
as the character's level\extra points builds up, they can devote more points/training into improving their magical skills (like cerryl's training in the guild - starts off with headaches in the rain, and ends up surviving Jeslek)

in order to gain more points at Char. creation, players could give their players 'disadvantages', that provide extra points in exchange for being paranoid or something. one of these could be 'bound to order', a disadvantage that reduces the cost of 'mage potential', stopping the player using chaos.

by taking mage potential, the character would immediately be hit by the compulsion to truth or the rain headaches etc.

later I'll do a proper list of advantages and diadvantages if you want to adopt it Matrim.
I'll also do a list of the effects of being a mage

was that understandable? - I'll clarify if I wasn't too clear

That does sound workable.
I do have one point of contention that is not so much important to development of the game. I have the impression that those who "cannot" use chaos are people who are extrememely orderlocked. Dorrin had a great deal of trouble using knives for basic tasks and never, that I can recall, used chaos. Lerris was orderlocked as well but had no trouble using a knife and did use chaos at least once. Lerris was simply not as tightly orderlocked as Dorrin.

Well I have to say I'm kinda against that idea because I hate the idea of, "If I can just find one more flaw, I can get that really cool merit." Most disadvantages that come to mind can come about though roleplaying. While some people actually enjoy playing a character with problems, some also just take the advantages then go through and try and find ones that will hamper them the least. Also I believe that the advantages can come about through roleplay. For example Kharl's order abilities surfaced because of his ordered lifestyle. Or perhaps his lifestyle was ordered because of some inborn order ability?

Of course if it works I'll use it. My original idea was to make them gain advantages in the form of feats/special abilities/spells through roleplaying at the end of the session. And disadvantages would gotten through play, such as losing an eye, headaches, order blindness, one hand, hunted, etc. Kharl definately had hunted, which he gained through what he did. So the big deciding factor would be, is it designed to gain through roleplaying? Also like I said earlier I hate people who offset advantages with disadvantages just because the have to.

Matrim

Kvetch wrote:I don't think occult is the right word, but I can't think what is.

Lore?