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I recently finished reading mage-guard (waited for paperback, not because im cheap but because hard covers are cumbersome) and had a few thoughts.

This story is my least favourite of all recluce stories, in spite of Rahl starting off looking like an extremely interesting and promising character.

I don't know exactly why but the story seemed to just drag on and on and then in the end the payoff was soooo small. Regional commander of a province... in a series that is mostly people who change the world and are remembered centuries after their passing! Weak!

Rahl doesn't bring anything new to the table in terms of magic (that I recall). Perhaps being an order mage using a scrying glass - but im not sure that didnt just indicate he was really a gray of some sorts. The air shields and exploding random things were introduced with Kharl, and the turning-ground-into-muck I believe was Cerryl? I know it was used before but not sure which character.

By comparison to the rest of the characters in the series Rahl ends up pretty mundane. I was expecting he'd become emperor (at the end of natural ordermage anyways). He didn't invent any technology (justen, dorrin), discover new magic (cerryl, kharl, lerris, creslin sort of), or assume a position of significant power (creslin, nylan, cerryl, lorn). Administrator of a province isn't quite like founding an entire nation or becoming emperor!

Did anyone else find Rahl's exploits ultimately a bit of a letdown in contrast to other recluce characters?

Let's see... Rahl started out as a scrivener, and he "merely" did what was necessary to break the back of the largest revolt in the history of Hamor... and possibly in the history of his world. He faced off against two of the most powerful chaos mages in the world and defeated one outright and fought the other to a standstill...

In terms of magic, he has one of the broadest ranges of capabilities... and he's still in his early twenties when the second book ends. The "province" he effectively controls is several times the size and population of Recluce itself, and close to as large as either Austra or Nordla.

In terms of accomplishment, it's not just where you end up, but where you started. Nylan ended up an exile in a forest; Kharl ended up lord of a very modest estate. Justen only destroyed one city and never ruled anything. Lorn was the son of the fourth most powerful mage in Cyador; Lerris was the son of one of the most powerful ordermages in Recluce. To become effectively one of the most powerful men in Hamor at his age, from where he began, is certainly not a let-down...


L. E. Modesitt, Jr.

Veritas wrote:Did anyone else find Rahl's exploits ultimately a bit of a letdown in contrast to other recluce characters?

Not me.

On a personal level, I identify way more with Kharl than with Rahl.

But as far as "new and different" being introduced to the whole fabric of Recluce .. I'm not sure that's a requirement but I still would say it succeeded.

Veritas wrote:Rahl doesn't bring anything new to the table in terms of magic (that I recall). Perhaps being an order mage using a scrying glass - but im not sure that didnt just indicate he was really a gray of some sorts.

My understanding was that "natural Ordermage" meant that he was a black as black can be. His entire being is Order-based.

Veritas wrote:By comparison to the rest of the characters in the series Rahl ends up pretty mundane. I was expecting he'd become emperor (at the end of natural ordermage anyways). He didn't invent any technology (justen, dorrin), discover new magic (cerryl, kharl, lerris, creslin sort of), or assume a position of significant power (creslin, nylan, cerryl, lorn). Administrator of a province isn't quite like founding an entire nation or becoming emperor!

To me, Rahl's story is a lot like Creslin's -- it's not about the destination as much as it is about the trip.

Also, both characters really serve only to introduce a "country" that we haven't seen before.

I realize that I'm seriously over-simplifying here. Creslin "invented" a new world-power, yes, but it's really just a way for us to discover the origins of the isle of Recluce.

As we travel with Rahl in and through Hamor, we arrive much as any immigrant would -- with the advantage of having employment lined up -- til we learn a few basics. And then, we're reduced to nothing and have to scrape and fight to get back to any semblance of "living".

If Mr. Modesitt had just printed "Hamor is derived from Cyador, bigger than Candar, and tends more towards industrialization" you would have a really crappy picture of the place.

He showed us the people as they are -- prejudiced, tender-hearted, greedy, honest, vengeful, loyal, conniving, patient, ..

Rahl's story invented Chaos-wielders and Order-masters working together to train an impatient, bratty, slow-to-learn, self-pitying, hormone-driven, .. kid .. who wouldn't have been more than a butt-smear if it hadn't been for them.

Obviously, I thought it was a fine addition to the series.

I tend to look for something new in each Recluce story. In Rhal's books, I found a great deal of new material. Mr. Modesitt definitely found a new way to keep us interested.

Chaos and Order mages working together was such a foreign concept to us until now; it's been such a constant that the two parties would automatically start fighting each other on sight.

Rhal definitely went through a lot in his story and certainly grew up by the end. If he didn't end up ruling all of Hamor, then I can accept that...after all, we left him when he was still young.

Mr. Modesitt also pointed out that Justen never ruled anything...and effectively ended up an exile from his home country of Recluce; but his story is still my favorite for where he started, what he went through, and how he finished.

There are parts of every story that seem to move slower than others. For instance, I've read TDOC three times and every time it seems like Lerris is walking with red dust on him for about 100 pages...but that actually isn't as long as I make it out to be, and it provides some setting and buildup for later events...like the earth literally grumbling in pain.

I thought Rahl was awesome. As far as Order mages go Rahl to me was sort of like the Super Hero of Order Mages after Taryl. It made me wonder how old Taryl was, because I figure he wasn't a natural ordermage, and to have his experience and powers, well he's gotta be in his 60's or 70's. Crazy old man...

Rahl to me was almost the epitome of Order Mages, he could learn almost anything if he worked at it. From working the winds to messing with the earth and no other order mage was able to do that. It was either one or the other more or less. Rahl could work shields like a pro, transfer energy to others. Accept death without it leaving him vomiting in the saddle. Come on! Rahl was superman! Next to Nylan and Justen, Rahl was probably my favorite character of the series. I always wonder what happened to Nylan though...for awhile I thought maybe he was Yual in Nacls, but they didnt fit. And when Arylyn and Weryl were still alive and Nylan wasn't around I always wondered...could he not conform?

Amphictyon,

Where is the reference to Ayrlyn and Weryl still being around and not Nylan? I don't remember mention of those two besides the "Book of Ayrlyn" references. Mr. Modesitt confirmed that Werlynn is not the same person as Weryl. There are several other Druid names dropped in TDOC but I'm pretty sure none of them were characters from Fall of Angels.

I always believed that the Ancient with whom Justen at the tree was Arylyn and, of course, Werlynn (called The Singer, if I recall) is her child by Nylan.

Sabin wrote:Amphictyon,

Where is the reference to Ayrlyn and Weryl still being around and not Nylan? I don't remember mention of those two besides the "Book of Ayrlyn" references. Mr. Modesitt confirmed that Werlynn is not the same person as Weryl. There are several other Druid names dropped in TDOC but I'm pretty sure none of them were characters from Fall of Angels.

Arylyn was the ancient druid Justen meets when he travels to Naclos forest. Who controls the maps of sand. Weryl I guess I must have missed Mr. Modesitt stating it wasnt him. I guess I should remember what assuming make's me. :/

But Rahl is famous in Lerris' time. The implication of the two novels is that he is the "famous dangergelder who is grandfather to the current emperor" or something like that. So even becoming leader of a province isn't the end of his journey.

Of course I only figured this out because I've been rereading the series and just finished Death of Chaos. So Lerris' time is current for me until I start the next book.

jmucchiello wrote:But Rahl is famous in Lerris' time. The implication of the two novels is that he is the "famous dangergelder who is grandfather to the current emperor" or something like that. So even becoming leader of a province isn't the end of his journey.

Hah, I haven't read The Magic or Death for years and I didn't remember that.

Welcome Jmuchiello to the forum.

We've had the discussion about the "dangergelder whose grandson became Emperor" at some length (See the "Does Rahl limit himself thread" a few pages back)

Unfortunately, the timelineof Mage Guard & Death of Chaos rule out this appealing hypothesis

Cheers

Dave A

You'll have to point me to that discussion. I always assumed Rahl's story took place between the end of Magic Engineer and the start of Magic of Recluse. And that lines up well for Rahl to be grandfather to someone of Lerris' generation.

Did I see somewhere that there's a third Rahl book coming?

The Magic Engineer & The Death of Chaos span several hundred years. Which makes your time frame unworkable.

I suggest you research back through some of the older threads and then rejoin the community. We all have had assumptions punctured by pithy remarks made by Mr Modesitt.

Dave A

DaveA wrote:The Magic Engineer & The Death of Chaos span several hundred years. Which makes your time frame unworkable.

No it doesn't. It makes my timeline make a lot of sense. Rahl could be born 100-120 years before Death of Chaos (or Lerris specifically). That year span is definitely after the destruction of Fairhaven. That gives Rahl time to travel Hamor, have children, have grandchildren and have one of those grandchildren ascend to the throne of Hamor by the time Lerris destroys Order and Chaos.

I suggest you research back through some of the older threads and then rejoin the community. We all have had assumptions punctured by pithy remarks made by Mr Modesitt.

And I did ask for pointers to such threads. Since I don't know the context of the threads I have no idea what to search for. But I'll give it a go if no one remembers what threads to look for.

Okay so I found the chronology and it puts Natural Ordermage too far in Lerris' past for the grandfather thing to work but it brings up a new issue unless my memory of books I just read in the last week or two has gone buggy:

http://www.travelinlibrarian.info/reclu ... ology.html

1200 The Magic Engineer - Dorrin wonders if Nylan will have to continue the practice of exile espoused by the council
1500 Natural Ordermage - Rahl is sent on Dangergeld
1650 The Order War - pg 263 (paperback) Jenna says (to the rest of the council) "Sometimes I don't think we should have stopped the practice of exile."

So which is it? Justin is not exiled in 1650 because that practice was abolished (I had assumed by Dorrin) but 150 years earlier the practice is still in progress. Is the answer that dangergeld was only ended because of Rahl? Is that Rahl's lasting effect on the saga? Or there's a different chronology but I don't think so.

Just because exiling was ended by Dorrin does not means that certain (or several) council(s) reinstated the practice then future councils ended the practice again, back and fourth over several hundred of years.

Governments change policies then reverse themselves back and forth over time. Tax rates go up and down, diplomatic relationships begin, end, and are developed over centuries as leadership and economic and politcal stratigies change. These policies change just look at teh relationships between England, France and Spain over hundreds of years of history.

I'm currently reading "Darknesses" (Corean Chronicles) and the trader's council is doing the same sorts of things ..

I like that part of the realism of Mr. Modesitt's stories.

(Not that it makes me care for politicians any more than before .. .. but I do like how he weaves it into the fabric of the tale.)

I didn't like Karhl's stories the first time i read them but after i digest them and then re-read them in a month or so i find that i can appreciate their characters a little more.

There are stories i like, there are Characters i like, the best are a good mix of both.